Is Colt a Dutch Shepherd?

[Brindle Colt]

I got my dog Colt from Kijiji in Ontario... the person I got him from had bought him as a surprise for his girlfriend who just had a baby and did not want a puppy as well, he bought Colt on a Sunday and I had him by Wednesday afternoon. This guy told me Colt is a German Shepherd x Belgian Malinois, but Colt is brindle and does not have a German Shepherd's thick coat... I think he might be a Dutch Shepherd and the guy had never heard of one so told me German Shepherd instead? Or can a German Shepherd/Malinois cross end up looking like a Dutch Shepherd?

Colt at around one year of age;


Colt last September relaxing after a long day of playing on the beach:

[LyonsFamily]

I would say GSD crossed with what I would call a DS and that DS probably has mal in close in the background. It looks DS, but has a GSD body.

Here goes my explanation from a trainer/owner background, not specializing in or breeding DS.
Since mals and DS are still being crossed regularly among breeders, some people call the dogs by their color, some call it by the dam's color, etc. I know of a lot of half DS/mal that are brindle, but are still called malinois by their handlers because the mom was fawn. I also know of breeders that would call that brindle pup a DS. It my mind, because it's easier, I call dogs from mixed litters malinois if they're fawn and DS if they're brindle since the breeds are so close and often mixed in KNPV breedings.

I've had quite a few cops tell me (insist) that Odin is for sure a brindle malinois and they used to have one in their department. They've never heard of DS before and insist that it might just be another name for a brindle mal. I try to explain things to them, but it doesn't really work. There are other's on this forum that can get into the whole DS/mal thing and what is exactly the difference and may not agree with my classifying of the dogs, but that's why I don't breed and leave them with the genetics stuff.

It might not be correct in a kennel club/registry, but if the dog is working, it doesn't really matter what they call it in the end.

Welcome to the forum! Your dog is gorgeous and probably very similar to a lot of ours. Many members of this forum, myself included, have dogs that came from rescue or KNPV lines, so the odds are that many of ours are just as Dutch as yours is. You'll find a ton of info hear and lots of great photos and advice and doggie troubleshooting.

[Brindle Colt]

Thanks Stephanie! I am mostly just curious as everyone always stops me to ask me what breed he is and I would love to have the right answer... but usually just say Dutch Shepherd so I don't have to do too much explaining! I had never even heard of a Dutch Shepherd until I got Colt and googled "brindle Shepherd". He is truly a wonderful dog though; smart, sensitive, the right amount of playful and cuddly... so no matter his exact breeding, I couldn't love him more!

[Dutchringgirl]

In the last picture he looks like brindle GS, so I would guess, GSX DS. He looks quite large? How much does he weigh?

[Brindle Colt]

At nearly two and a half years old he weighs 96 lbs., he is a very big boy!

[Dutchringgirl]

wow, he is a big boy!!!

[Momof3Pups]

I am also wondering if my pup Forrest is a GS X DS. He has a german shepherd body but is brindled (I posted pics of him back in January), he is exactly 50 lbs and was 5 months yesterday. He looks a lot like Colt in body, just is a bit lighter in his brindle coloring.
Gorgeous dog you have there!!

[Christie M]

Many people are breeding Dutch Shepherds with thicker "bone" because they think it makes a more impressive working dog. The reality is that is also brings all of the big-boned health problems. And honestly.....a 60 pound full speed DS knocking into and biting the bad guy is pretty freaking impressive.

The one thing I will comment on is - there can not genetically ever be a brindle malinois. LOL. Sorry Stephanie, I know it wasn't you stating that. But I don't want anyone to misunderstand. 2 fawn or sable dogs can not have a brindle dog or carry a brindle gene. Brindle is dominant and always expressed if it is carried. So a brindle dog always has to be part of the equation to produce brindle offspring.

[LyonsFamily]

I believe the thinking others have, from at least the AKC view, is that the malinois came in multiple colors from the beginning, similar to how GSD's come in multiple colors. Most people that I come across referring to brindle mals are familiar with AKC breeds, and don't consider the dutchie in their logic.

The problem for this to exist, would be that there would have to be brindle lines of "pure" mals continuing on somewhere in order for it to continue showing up without any DS added in. It should've gone extinct as a color years ago if only fawns were being bred because as Christi said, you can't make brindle out of 2 fawns.

They do have Brindle listed in the breed standard as acceptable to register for malinois, just not in the conformation ring. It is a limited view though, because the Dutch Shepherd was never recognized as a breed by AKC until recently. I'm not sure if that standard would've added brindle in the first place had the DS been an AKC breed years ago. That is just speculation though.

Adding on to that, I have a few questions and this is where I'd like to hear a breeder's opinion, especially Christi's, what about Black? Black is an acceptable color too with the same limitations as brindle in the breed ring, according to the AKC standard and seems to be more of an accceptable color for some breeders, but from what I understand, it comes from a Groendael bred in years ago. Isn't black dominate over fawn too, meaning that there has to be a black parent to produce black? Since a Groendael is considered a separate breed for AKC, wouldn't those black dogs also be "mixed?"

I'm just wondering how far removed something has to be, in order for it to be acceptably pure and where the line should be drawn. Certain dalmatians are now registerable with an allowed outcross of pointer to fix health problems, and after a few generations breeding true, they are back in the books. The DNA matches at around 99.98% to the original Dalmatian ancestors.

If a fawn dog is bred to a brindle dog, a brindle pup would be 50% mal. If that pup was bred to a fawn, they could still produce a brindle pup, and that dog would be 75%. The process could continue, selectively breeding just brindles, and eventually we'd get to a 99.98% mal dog that is physically brindle. How different is that from the black mal that may be .02% groendael? Would you consider that a malinois, despite the color, given the high percentage?
Stephanie and Odin

[Christie M]

[quote="LyonsFamily"]Adding on to that, I have a few questions and this is where I'd like to hear a breeder's opinion, especially Christi's, what about Black? Black is an acceptable color too with the same limitations as brindle in the breed ring, according to the AKC standard and seems to be more of an accceptable color for some breeders, but from what I understand, it comes from a Groendael bred in years ago. Isn't black dominate over fawn too, meaning that there has to be a black parent to produce black? Since a Groendael is considered a separate breed for AKC, wouldn't those black dogs also be "mixed?"

Honestly, I don't know where the cut off is or should be. In reality, they were all just "shepherds" and each country decided what direction they were going to go with the breed standard. Mals and GSD didn't come first...they were just the first to make it over here.

I know that the black is located on the same loci as yellow and brindle, and it is dominant to both. So two brindles can't make a black (therefore, there are no black Dutch Shepherds - if you are dealing with that loci only), just like 2 fawns can't make a brindle (or obviously a black). I think your statement is correct though - when people first learned about the breeds, they simply didn't know that a brindle breed similar to the malinois existed, so it made sense to call them brindle malinois instead of Dutch Shepherds or crosses.

I know of a few working dog people who have done what you described. Kept the one brindle puppy to breed to mals, and continuing through generations just to preserve the color because "stripes" sell. I don't know what I would call those dogs except for DS or Mal X. Often people say, "overseas they just call the stripes ones Dutch and hte fawn ones mals." But if you look at http://bloedlijnen.nl/, they are listed as X Mechelse Herder or X Hollandase Herder to indicate cross.

I don't know how recently FCI would have had brindle as an accepted color for Malinois. I doubt ever in our lifetimes. I think AKC threw it in there out of ignorance and probably to appease the masses, not because they knew anything about the breeds.

But that is the age old debate. When you out cross, at what point do you have Dutch Shepherds and Malinois again?