Dutch Shep and Belgian Mal?

[DogGirl_95]

This is a silly question but are they the same breed with just different coat colors? I keep hearing people say you can find both breeds in the same litter? Nobody seems to have the facts just a bunch of opinion's. If they are the same breed should I add some working Mal breeders to my "list"? If they are not I have heard that Dutch Shep's usually have Larger Jaws/Heads/Bites, denser muscle, and an "off switch", Is this just an opinion or are they essentially the same breed? I always thought the DS had more GSD in them. And Why are DS’s not as popular with Military and Police as the GSD or Mal? I am getting confused Lol.

[Lauren]

They are separate breeds. It is possible to have a "fawn" (Mal coloring) colored dutch Shepherd if both parents carry the recessive gene, but it is still a DS. Mals can not be brindle.

In the FCI DS lines there is supposed to be pure DS, But in the KNPV lines common here in America there often is Belgian Mal blood mixed in.

Their shapes are so similar to an untrained eye like mine, that I could not tell the difference without the color guide to help me.

[CaroleBoaz]

Some people will say that a DS is a Malinois with stripes, not true.

Here is a quiz from a breed book I have. Some of these dogs are Dutch and some are Belgian. Can you tell the difference?



Direct link.
http://clgoetz.8m.com/dogs/boaz/dorb.jpg

[CaroleBoaz]

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1, 5, 8, 9 and 12 are Belgians.

[alspyce]

Got it----by the skin of my teeth at 12 tho.

[CaroleBoaz]

Yeah, I think that No. 12 is groomed more than is usual.

[mike]

I thought that 11 and 12 were the same dog.

[Christie M]

I think that in the working dog world here, there is a large percentage of people who assign a breed name based on color. If a fawn and a brindle are bred together, and the litter is mixed, they just call the fawns mals and the brindles DS. With the mingling of breeds, there is a mingling of temperaments and personalities.

Within all of that, there are people within the breeds that try to produce true to breed and color, but breed for different things. There are some DS here who are sharp and quick to come up the leash at a handler. There are others that are extremely biddable and eager to please - to a point of being clingy. Still others that are very independent, but have no handler aggression and are mostly prey monsters.

I think it really comes down to deciding on the type of personality you want and finding a breeder who has proven that through multiple letters. And if you want DS, look for someone with FCI lines or atleast multiple generations of bridle bred to brindle. Most DS here have mal in the background somewhere.

[DogGirl_95]

They are separate breeds. It is possible to have a "fawn" (Mal coloring) colored dutch Shepherd if both parents carry the recessive gene, but it is still a DS. Mals can not be brindle.

In the FCI DS lines there is supposed to be pure DS, But in the KNPV lines common here in America there often is Belgian Mal blood mixed in.

Their shapes are so similar to an untrained eye like mine, that I could not tell the difference without the color guide to help me.

Ohhh ok, I guess I need to start learning about some doggie genetics too! I don't think I could tell the differnce either without some help. Is a KNPV DS and a FCI DS usually the same build/looks wise?

[DogGirl_95]

[quote="CaroleBoaz"] Can you tell the difference?






Lol I got that so wrong!!! They looked so similar that I went off color!

[leih merigian]

I don't think I could tell the differnce either without some help. Is a KNPV DS and a FCI DS usually the same build/looks wise?

To the untrained eye, they most likely are. To people who understand the nuances of the differences, not .

The main differentiator is that FCI lines are typically bred to meet the standard, visually. KNPV lines are bred for working traits, and if nice looks can be a part of that, great. Of course, some FCI breeders do produce dogs that have working talents, but it's not the norm.

Geyser, my young DS, has a tail that is way longer than the standard likes, for example. I had no idea until this topic came up in one of the threads a while back. Does it make any difference to me? Nada.

Look up a few threads we have under Conformation. There was a lot of discussion of some of these things in them, I believe.

It's great that you're doing so much research prior to getting a pup!

[DogGirl_95]

I think that in the working dog world here, there is a large percentage of people who assign a breed name based on color. If a fawn and a brindle are bred together, and the litter is mixed, they just call the fawns mals and the brindles DS. With the mingling of breeds, there is a mingling of temperaments and personalities.

Within all of that, there are people within the breeds that try to produce true to breed and color, but breed for different things. There are some DS here who are sharp and quick to come up the leash at a handler. There are others that are extremely biddable and eager to please - to a point of being clingy. Still others that are very independent, but have no handler aggression and are mostly prey monsters.

I think it really comes down to deciding on the type of personality you want and finding a breeder who has proven that through multiple litters. And if you want DS, look for someone with FCI lines or atleast multiple generations of brindle bred to brindle. Most DS here have Mal in the background somewhere.

So witht the KNPV lines you might have a larger array of temperments, drives, and nerves because they mix breeds or is it the other way around? I think I like the DS better than the Mal on size, color, and temperment. But I won't really know until I meet up with a trainer in March adn meet some dogs. Would it really matter if I got a DS from KNPV or FCI lines as long as the breeder/breed stock was good and I was prepared, well as much as I could be?

[Choochi]

I think both are very similar with some differences and I wouldn't necessary lump the differences based on breed/colour but rather the lines. Do you have a preference in the looks of the Dutchies vs the Mals? That might be one simple way to narrow down the choices. Beyond that, I would suggest meeting various dogs and learning about their pedigrees to start getting an idea of what type of lines you like.

In both breeds there are dogs that are serious man eater types, there some goofy ones in both breeds, high prey monsters, tough guys, stubborn hard headed ones, soft and highly responsive ones, low prey drive ones, you name it...

Decide on what you want in the dog, what you don't want, and take it from there, chances are that you will be able to find both a dutchie and a mal example of what you are looking for so I wouldn't necessary get so hung up on the breed. There are lots of types within each breed, some very complimentary of each other (i.e. KNPV Mals vs KNPV Dutchies)

[Choochi]

I think both are very similar with some differences and I wouldn't necessary lump the differences based on breed/colour but rather the lines. Do you have a preference in the looks of the Dutchies vs the Mals? That might be one simple way to narrow down the choices. Beyond that, I would suggest meeting various dogs and learning about their pedigrees to start getting an idea of what type of lines you like.

In both breeds there are dogs that are serious man eater types, there some goofy ones in both breeds, high prey monsters, tough guys, stubborn hard headed ones, soft and highly responsive ones, low prey drive ones, you name it...

Decide on what you want in the dog, what you don't want, and take it from there, chances are that you will be able to find both a dutchie and a mal example of what you are looking for so I wouldn't necessary get so hung up on the breed. There are lots of types within each breed, some very complimentary of each other (i.e. KNPV Mals vs KNPV Dutchies)

[DogGirl_95]

I think both are very similar with some differences and I wouldn't necessary lump the differences based on breed/colour but rather the lines. Do you have a preference in the looks of the Dutchies vs the Mals? That might be one simple way to narrow down the choices. Beyond that, I would suggest meeting various dogs and learning about their pedigrees to start getting an idea of what type of lines you like.

In both breeds there are dogs that are serious man eater types, there some goofy ones in both breeds, high prey monsters, tough guys, stubborn hard headed ones, soft and highly responsive ones, low prey drive ones, you name it...

Decide on what you want in the dog, what you don't want, and take it from there, chances are that you will be able to find both a dutchie and a mal example of what you are looking for so I wouldn't necessary get so hung up on the breed. There are lots of types within each breed, some very complimentary of each other (i.e. KNPV Mals vs KNPV Dutchies)

I like both breeds equally but I heard that most DS are a little bit larger and have an "off" switch but that could just be a particular line or an opinion. Only reason a slightly larger dog matters is because I would like to use it in Ski-Joring and Pulling me on a skate or something. I have seen actual videos of A Mal and a DS pulling full grown men and women so I know it can be done with proper conditioning. Haven't been abe to schedule a meeting or meet any owners/dogs yet but I am trying to get in contact with a couple people.

[Choochi]

I know a girl up north in Sudbury who just started racing with her 2 Mals and has also hooked up a rescue Dutchie she was fostering (dog is about 45lbs and did just fine). So far from what she's been saying they have been super fast, the only issues she's having is with them squabbling and taking nips at each other at start line and when they come to a stop

My female Dutchie is about 50-52lbs. I wanted a bigger dog, so I got a male Dutchie form a dad I really liked (he's around 70 something lbs)... my boy is now about 8 months and just under 50lbs so don't think all Dutchies are automatically bigger.

I went out and bought myself a 3 year old 80lb Mal So... don't think all Mals are necessarily smaller He's typical size for Belgian Ring lines.

[CaroleBoaz]

DS are supposed to be smaller than Belgians, so it's probably just the specific mix or pedigree that you've seen.

I just saw some skijoring races the other day. I think a DS would have no problem. My Laekenois pulls me off my feet every time he sees a squirrel!

[vneerland]

DS are supposed to be smaller than Belgians, so it's probably just the specific mix or pedigree that you've seen.

Nope. The correct size for either breed is very close. So I don't think that is a true statement.

[CaroleBoaz]

Nope. The correct size for either breed is very close. So I don't think that is a true statement.

DS are 1.5 inches shorter than Malinois (for males). These are taken from the breed standards.

Malinios Males are 24 to 26 inches in height (61–66 cm)

Dutch Shepherd Height: 57 – 62 cm (dogs) 22.5 - 24.4 inches

It might not seem huge, but 2 dogs side by side it would be very noticeable.

[vneerland]

Yes, I know the standard.
Belgian males, preferably 62, females preferably 58. Deviation upwards plus 4, downwards minus 2.
DS's for males, preferred from 57 to 62. Take the deviation (above) and really, there is almost no difference. Not, at least, in the way the author in this thread means. DS's are not supposed to be larger, for sure, but I have known a lot of members both breeds (yes, also the pedigreed ones) and it does not strike as a difference.