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Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

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Raven
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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Raven » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:08 pm

A pup's prey drive generally kicks in around eight or nine months. You keep referring to drive in a general sense, so I have to ask: if you go with a pup who you're told is calmer than the others (again, this is so subjective and can change as they develop and through training), what about when the prey drive kicks in and you think it's too much?

Prey drive may not be the title of many threads on this board, but it is a theme throughout many threads over the years. For good reason.

I'm having trouble connecting the dots on your not wanting a high-drive dog with a breed that is typically high drive. And also with getting a pup where traits and personality aren't always going to end up the same as the dog you thought you were getting.

Aren't there other questions you have? Like training techniques. Or anything about training since it is a HUGE, HUGE part of owning a DS. Health issues. How to deal with their mouthiness, bite drive, etc.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

nvd
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Tell us about yourself: Name is Nick, I am Canadian and my background is Dutch.
I love dogs and animals in general. I have always wanted a DS.
So now im in the process to educate my self on them before I
take the plunge! - Now I have one! not like any other dog thats
forsure!
Location: Waterford, Ontario

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by nvd » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:34 pm

Raven wrote:I'm having trouble connecting the dots on your not wanting a high-drive dog with a breed that is typically high drive. And also with getting a pup where traits and personality aren't always going to end up the same as the dog you thought you were getting.

Aren't there other questions you have? Like training techniques. Or anything about training since it is a HUGE, HUGE part of owning a DS. Health issues. How to deal with their mouthiness, bite drive, etc.
Like I originally stated, I have done a lot of research on these dogs and other dogs in general to ensure we understand what we would be getting into lol!. The questions I am asking are confirming if this is the right breed for us. Which I think it can be so long as we find the right one which may take some time. I am now understanding that a puppy may seem like it has less energy as a pup but can change as they get older. So maybe an adult would be a better option.?

We considered GSD but have learned that typically speaking a DS usually has better health. Training technique questions can come later, but we do plan to take our future dog to obedience training and more down the road. And even find a trainer who can not only help to train the dog but train us the owners to ensure we are doing it to the best of our ability.

We truly appreciate all the comments and help that everyone has informed us of, we are learning more and more which is helping us to do a more educated decision when finding a dog.
Nick V.
Dutch Shepherd - Tyson - Born June 12, 2014

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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by karenz » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:58 pm

I think the confusion people have is "drive". Xander is only my second ds. I was confused for quite some time in the beginning. When I got my first ds I thought "drive" meant lots of energy, wanted to play all the time, would be able to keep up on long walks and hiking. In general an energetic dog. I soon learned that wasn't the case. It meant running circles around my niece and nephew and biting at their ankles. It meant chasing everything small and furry (with the intention of killing it). It meant teeth. It meant needing a lot of mental stimulation. To this day my friends freak out because Xander WILL put his teeth on me. Mouthy is definitely a good point to bring up. Maybe there is a way to get rid of the mouthiness. Please tell me if there is. I decided I wasn't going to get rid of it and chose to learn how to manage it and work with it, not against it.

I also requested a low drive pup when I spoke to the breeder. She basically said that she would not sell the higher drive pups as "pets". I respect her for this. She said they needed to be working dogs, that is what they are meant to do. However, do not think this means that you will get a DS that is laid back or doesn't require a lot of work and attention and training. Xander's "lower" drive is still 100 times that of most any other breed.

I don't want to discourage anyone from getting a ds. I just think a lot of reading and research should be done first. I think as long as you truly know what you are getting and that's what you want, go for it. I always feel like people THINK they know what they are getting and find out they had no idea. Like the time I read online about rebuilding my transmission and I thought I knew what I was doing. Ohhah what a disaster. Lol
Karen & Xander

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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Raven » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:21 pm

karenz wrote: Mouthy is definitely a good point to bring up. Maybe there is a way to get rid of the mouthiness. Please tell me if there is. I decided I wasn't going to get rid of it and chose to learn how to manage it and work with it, not against it.
Thor was a big mouther when I brought him home. Obnoxiously so. (And he muzzle-punched, too, plus a million other things.) I trained him out of it. Let me see if I can find the thread on here where that was addressed. Later, though.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by johninny » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:49 pm

OMG, the whole muzzle-punching thing is a matter that has been relatively absent from this forum. i have experienced it before, but - GEE - my 2 puppies are really aggressive in their use of muzzle power.

Karen, i agree: easier to work with and tame and control mouthiness than do away with it, which i would not want to do where my own body is concerned - too important as a channel of communication for the dog.
but pity the new DS owner that does not understand mouthiness, let less know how to deal with it.
Last edited by johninny on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka

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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by karenz » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:53 pm

Muzzle punching????? Explain. Is this what Xander is doing when he picks up his toy walks over to me and keeps hitting my arm leg hand even head with the toy that's in his mouth. I didnt know that had a name. I just called it annoying. He is getting better with that but he still does it when he is really wound up.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Raven » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:47 pm

Muzzle-punching: they use their muzzle to punch you. Face. Stomach. Legs. Wherever. Thor used to use his muzzle but he also used to punch with a toy in his mouth, like your guy. I don't like it, it's rude, so he doesn't do either, anymore.

I found the thread, but it's not as exciting and involved as I remembered it being. The only thing I found was:

*********
Sue, I don't think I offered him anything in place of my hands. I do remember learning when to expect it and started giving him surprises along with a "no." (Vinegar on my hands was one; another was a little kids water pistol filled with water--I'd whip it out of my pocket and get a shot in the mouth...along with a sharp "no.")

I was working on tons of other stuff with him at the time (he was pretty out of control) so I suspect it became part of the whole package. I also didn't reward him for not doing it; the reward was not getting a negative reinforcement.
**********

That was in relation to Thor's mouthiness. But on that note, he replaced the one behavior with another, temporarily: licking. When he'd want to mouth, he'd lick. Sometimes, still does. And he also will still open those jaws to mouth and then thinks, "Hmmm...probably not a good idea."

And while I did use a kid's water pistol with vinegar, I should have stuck to the vinegar on my hands and general discouragement; I always got it in his mouth, but it easily could've misfired into his eye.

He also wasn't a big nibble-groomer (only the occasional nibble on my arm), but once training was solidly underway and he knew the deal and we were solidly bonded and all that other happy horse****, he came to often nibble-groom his Mama, mostly the side of my jaw. That I don't mind. Form of affection. Any pinch you might feel, if any, is truly accidental.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by karenz » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:52 pm

Xander is much better with the muzzle punching now. He will still try it occasionally but it can quickly and easily be stopped with "NO". His mouthiness doesn't bother me. It is soft and gentle. A lot of times it is when I am giving him a firm rub and he puts my hand in his mouth and tries to pull it towards his head area. It's kind of cute, like no no rub over here. But it took a lot of work teeth marks and blood to get to that point. I actually do not want to stop it completely. I am not teaching him protection or to do bite work but I also don't want him to think he can never use his teeth or put his mouth on someone. I when I tell him "OUT" he stops. I can definitely say that not knowing how to manage and control this could result in someone getting hurt.
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by karenz » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:37 pm

And Raven.... I forgot to mention that as a puppy I also molded teeth into kisses or licks. This worked very well. Of course now we still get lots of kisses.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Raven » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:08 pm

karenz wrote:And Raven.... I forgot to mention that as a puppy I also molded teeth into kisses or licks. This worked very well. Of course now we still get lots of kisses.
:DSlove:

Nice job!
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:16 pm

Not sure if this was already mentioned here as I didnt read all of the posts

There is prey drive and energy drive, they are different. Thalie has a low prey drive but high energy drive. Sadie has very high both. Thalie will recall off running after a squirrel fast but Sadie locks on target and is harder to recall.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:19 pm

nvd wrote:
As for an AKC Malinois, we never considered a Mal as we where under the impression they had more drive and energy then a DS.. or I that the wrong assumption?


Thanks
Ive had both. Loved my mal, he is super cool and a great dog. The main difference I had found is the DS have an off switch. I stop, they lay down, I get up , they get up. My Mal would pace all day no matter what I did. They dont turn off.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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nvd
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Tell us about yourself: Name is Nick, I am Canadian and my background is Dutch.
I love dogs and animals in general. I have always wanted a DS.
So now im in the process to educate my self on them before I
take the plunge! - Now I have one! not like any other dog thats
forsure!
Location: Waterford, Ontario

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by nvd » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:16 pm

Just want to say thank you to everyone for all of the input, and after some countless of hours of research and reading thread after thread I think we would be happy with a DS, however we will now do homework on breeders and trainers in order to one find the "right" DS for us and then find a trainner to help us train the dog properly. Unless we find an adult, however it seems to be that a trained adult DS can be a pretty penny! then again it may be worth it!

Again thanks for all the input, I have a better understanding of a lot of new information now!

Thanks a lot!
Nick and Jenn
Nick V.
Dutch Shepherd - Tyson - Born June 12, 2014

johninny
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by johninny » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm

you can ''train'' an adult just as well as a puppy. you would simply need to find an adoptable adult that is not emotionally scarred and is well and HAPPILY socialized to dogs and people. with a little patience, that is quite doable through a rescue - thus like has already been discussed here, you really know what you are getting. getting an adult that is well-adjusted to the world is the key. everything else can be taught to these dogs so easily til the day they die. it does seem to me that for you temperament is the key issue, and you will never know for sure with a puppy. if you get the right temperament, everything else can go very well.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka

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Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:59 pm

nvd wrote:
The reason I have asked questions about "calm" is because for a family pet we do not need a working dog parse which is why we are asking if there is such thing as a calmer ds. I have read and talked to people before and have heard that sometimes there are dogs or shepherd which do not have the ball drive or drive in general to be a successful working dog but would be good family pet so long as they get the proper exercise etc.



thx
This is your answer right here. If you dont need a working dog, why not go for a different breed?

DS are working dogs they NEED to work. All of the research in the world will not prepare you for this breed. This is not your ordinary breed that will mold into what ever you want with a run here or there. When the babies start to roll in, then what is your plan for the dog and work? A Pup DS is like a baby Mensa student. Even an adult will figure things out faster than you. Too many of these dogs have been surrendered because people had no idea what they are getting into, not saying you will but again, book smarts will not come close to understanding what this breed is about.

I spent years working and training with protection sports with mine and some days I still cant figure them out ,but I have enough training with this breed to know to go hit the liquor cabinet.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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johninny
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by johninny » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:17 pm

did not know which post [ the choosing puppy one ?] to choose: now that you have jumped to looking at puppies in a breeder's litter, maybe you should consider a drive to see what a great breeder's operations and dogs are like. it is some distance, but rather direct along major highways from you [ and at 3x your age, i have driven 2x the distance in 1 day to search for a dog, so it seems quite doable]. Chercar Kennels - one of the best in north america - is in st.johns, MI, almost due west of you. they have very steady dogs and would be very good - like other great breeders [ among whom behavioral science is always an important component ] - at identifying a puppy most likely to fit your goals of having a family dog.

now i realize you probably do not want to spend that much, but the visit would be very educational and may alert you to possible pitfalls with your local breeder. and you would have a sense of what a great puppy looks/acts like.
aside from the art of breeding great dogs in the first place, the first 2 months of raising puppies in a litter is both an art and a science that is critical to their development. the import of this escapes less professional and backyard breeders and their dogs and new owners pay for that. [ sorry - the rest of us have no info on the breeder you visited, so some of us - like myself - start imagining the worst. ]

EDIT: just checked - they have puppies now - born july 9th, another litter due 8/16. all from very distinguished parents. and there are almost certainly somewhat older puppies in training. would be good insight into what it takes to produce good sound DS.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka

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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:49 pm

John, I saw your posts were the same except your Edited post, so I deleted the first one.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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nvd
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Tell us about yourself: Name is Nick, I am Canadian and my background is Dutch.
I love dogs and animals in general. I have always wanted a DS.
So now im in the process to educate my self on them before I
take the plunge! - Now I have one! not like any other dog thats
forsure!
Location: Waterford, Ontario

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by nvd » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:19 pm

I have another questions!!

We are looking at a DS / Mal Mix or what ever the correct title would be.. a male puppy.

We would be able to take him home between Aug. 7-14 (8-9 wks) from then I would start to do some various trainings (as you would at this age) and would continue to do so for the next 3-4 weeks to a age of 12 weeks of age.

We are then getting married on the 6th of sept. then leaving on our honeymoon Sept. 9th returning sept. 20th. Therefore we would be away from the pup at the age of week 13 and 14 for a total of 11 days.

Would leaving the puppy for this long at the above age be an issue? I understand this may be a crucial time for training and socialization however, I can leave the pup with a person who has a lot of dog expirence. Or if needed I could find a trainer to leave him with to have more training in the mean time...

Either that or we pass on the pup and wait until we are back and find a different one. I am just unsure what would be the better choice.

Thanks
Nick
Nick V.
Dutch Shepherd - Tyson - Born June 12, 2014

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Nunnari
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Tell us about yourself: I am a husband and father of 3, one bouncing boy and two fur-babies (one Dutch Shepherd/Malinois Mix and one Alaskan Malamute). I am military and have experience training and working with detection and protection canines although I am not a working dog handler. My Dutch is just over 2 years old. I have spent countless hours training our dogs and enjoy the work. Both have strong drive and motivation towards training but enjoy being rambunctious when I am away.

Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Nunnari » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:42 am

One option would be to work in an additional "trainer" prior to your vacation. Someone with experience and your trust, to work with the pup, maybe even in your home until you get back. Two birds with one stone, dog sitter and house sitter. I occasionally have to do this when I leave town for short periods and I rarely have any issues. We have lost a couple of dog beds but that was the worst we had to deal with.
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Brutus, Dutch/Malinois Mix
Nero, Alaskan Malamute

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Re: Questions for Experienced DS Owners and Breeders

Post by Raven » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:51 pm

Nick's additional question on July 23rd (DS/BM pup) was also posted under "Puppies" as its own question. (I didn't catch the duplicate.) Most replies are under that thread.

Any future replies regarding the DS/BM pup and his wedding, please post under Nick's thread in "Puppies." Its title is: "Questions On Choosing A Puppy." His post on July 23rd in that thread is the same. Thanks.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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