Schutzhund question?

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Rob C
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Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Hey everyone. So I have a few questions about Schutzhund I was hoping someone might be able to answer. I've tried gathering information on this about how to prepare a puppy for future training, but everything I've found has been pretty limited. But I had a few questions about what I've found so far.

1) I've heard that you don't want to stop the puppy biting phase, because it will limit their bite later? I read that the idea is to just distract the puppy to bite something else other than you. A tug toy, etc. But that you don't want to reprimand or stop the biting. Is there any truth to this?

2) I read that you don't want to pet the puppies head.....? That you only want to pet the puppies back and chest, or under the chin?

3) Does anyone here have an animal that is currently already titled? My question is, how are they around family and friends? Such as small children, other animals, etc? Does the training make them over aggressive towards other people or animals? Or are they just like any other animal? I understand the extreme level of obedience it takes for this sport, so I didn't think it would be much of an issue, but I figured it can't ever hurt to ask.

4) Can any puppy eventually compete in this sport, or are there some that can, and some that can't? I understand that outside influence plays a major part of how puppies develop as far as temperament and such are concerned. But as far as end goal, is it possible for all dogs (obviously not Chihuahuas, but you get my gist) to do this with the proper training, or are there some dogs that just won't be able to? I know that you want to get a puppy from a line of dogs who do this sort of work with the right pedigree. But from that litter, will all of those puppies be able to with the right training? Or will some of them just be unable to do it period?

Thanks for any information you guys can provide!!!
Rob C
Vancouver, WA
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icvanstra
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Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by icvanstra »

Rob,

Great questions and I had much of the same when I started in Schutzhund. To note - I stopped training Cino in Schutzhund for several reasons and all them were not because of the dog.

Have you found a training group/club in your area to work with? If not I highly recommend that you do as soon as possible. When I started there was one in town and several within a couple hours drive. The club that I joined eventually split in two.

I found that the local club had a significant bias against any canine that wasn't a German Shepherd. Wasn't that they didn't allow other breeds - but they were definitely biased towards GSD!

Going to ping some other members to see if they can help you on this.
Eric
  • - Cino vom Foxtal
    - Abigail NORML de Weijer (over the bridge)
    - Hannah the DS wanna be (over the bridge)
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icvanstra
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Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by icvanstra »

p.s. just read your introduction (thank you for writing that) and see that you don't have a puppy yet.

I started with the local schutzhund club before I got the puppy so that I could watch others, talk to them and learn from them BEFORE the puppy arrived.

---

I saw that you asked the same question in two forums. I removed your other post.
Eric
  • - Cino vom Foxtal
    - Abigail NORML de Weijer (over the bridge)
    - Hannah the DS wanna be (over the bridge)
Rob C
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Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I have noticed a lot looking around that it seems quite biased towards GSD's versus other breeds that are equally good at that. I was looking on the Leerburg website, and it was saying that if people are interested in that type of work, that they should look in to Mondioring? Mondio Ring? And that it's a pretty new sport that is gaining popularity pretty quickly. I'll continue doing research to really find what I would like to do, and then from there I'll look in to some clubs and groups that are doing it and go take a look. Talk to the instructors and people training and just get an idea of what they think and their opinions towards other breeds, the sport, etc.

Yeah no puppy yet. But I want to make sure that when I finally do pick a breeder, I'll know I'm getting a quality animal that has the right pedigree and physical/mental ability to compete at it. In the end patience will pay off. So I just want to make sure I'm fully ready to take on something like that before I just jump in you know? But thanks for the info, and I welcome any comments or information that people are willing to offer.
Rob C
Vancouver, WA
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Tell us about yourself: Loving life in Oregon with some AMAZING Dutch Shepherds !

UWP Vrijheid's Force IPO3 (x5), FH2, AD, TDX, OSP, L2C, CGC, CD, APR1, TDU, NW3-C, NW3-E, NW3-V, NW3-I, NW3 Elite, ELT1, NA, NF, L3I, TG-N, TN-N, NAJ, VCD1, CSL1- F, CSL1-H, ELT2, L1E, CA, L2E, ELT3, ELT-CH, L3V, K9 Blood Donor
Vrijheid's Qahlua (Vodka) IPO3, L2I, L3C, NW3V, NW3C, NW3E. NW3I, L3E, NJP, NAP, OFP, NW3 Elite, L2V, TD
Van Kracht's Absolut Fury ( youngster in training )
Location: Oregon

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Brindle »

Hi Rob,

I have : UWP Vrijheid's Force IPO3(x5), FH1, NW2, AD, TD, OSP, K9 Blood Donor.
( Schutzhund is now known as IPO )
He's an intact male, just a little over 4 years old.
Safe around people/kids.
Prey drive is high so little critters ( animals ) are very exciting to him but due to his training he is safe around them with me.
Friendly with other dogs.
So he is an active, competitive IPO dog that is also a blood donor. A blood donor dog needs to lay on it's side for several minutes on a table with strange people looming over it, and one those people pokes a large needle into the jugular for the blood collection.
So yes, IPO ( schutzhund ) dogs can and should be safe and stable dogs.
*Some* lines can be a little more 'nervy', 'sharp' or reactive. Just like different working breeds, some individuals are better suited to sport work than others.

I agree with Eric 200% !!!
Find a training club/group near you that you feel comfortable with and go out every week to learn before you get your pup. Just because a dog has "X" pedigree and has "Y" potential doesn't mean it'll be an easy task to raise and train it. It takes a LOT of time, consistancy and dedication to raise a working dog right.
It's so easy for us as handlers to make mistakes that have long term effects on the dogs. The more we can learn without the dog the better prepared we'll be to help the dog learn correctly :D
Visit all the groups/clubs that train in your area and find a good match for you and your future pup.

Good luck !
UWP Vrijheid's Force IPO3,FH2,AD,TDX,OSP,L2C,CGC,CD,APR1,TDU,NA,NF,L3I,TG-N,TN-N,NAJ,VCD1,CSL1-F,CSL1-H,L1E,CA,L2E, ELT-CH,L3V

Vrijheid's Qahlua IPO3,L2I,L3CI,L3E,NJP,NAP,OFP,NW3 Elite,L2V,TD

Van Kracht's Absolut Fury ( in training )
Rob C
Puppy
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:20 pm
Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Hello Jenny (again lol)

Thank you for all of the information! I just figured those are questions that any responsible person would ask before training an animal in that type of work rather than risk having a loose cannon. Have you ever noticed any difference in the sport between male and female dogs? Is one suited to it better than another? I've just read that some people would rather use females for agility, and males for IPO (Thanks for the info on that ;) ). Would there be a difference in prey drive or workability, physicality, etc?
Rob C
Vancouver, WA
Brindle
Green Dog
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:03 am
Tell us about yourself: Loving life in Oregon with some AMAZING Dutch Shepherds !

UWP Vrijheid's Force IPO3 (x5), FH2, AD, TDX, OSP, L2C, CGC, CD, APR1, TDU, NW3-C, NW3-E, NW3-V, NW3-I, NW3 Elite, ELT1, NA, NF, L3I, TG-N, TN-N, NAJ, VCD1, CSL1- F, CSL1-H, ELT2, L1E, CA, L2E, ELT3, ELT-CH, L3V, K9 Blood Donor
Vrijheid's Qahlua (Vodka) IPO3, L2I, L3C, NW3V, NW3C, NW3E. NW3I, L3E, NJP, NAP, OFP, NW3 Elite, L2V, TD
Van Kracht's Absolut Fury ( youngster in training )
Location: Oregon

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Brindle »

Rob C wrote:
1) I've heard that you don't want to stop the puppy biting phase, because it will limit their bite later? I read that the idea is to just distract the puppy to bite something else other than you. A tug toy, etc. But that you don't want to reprimand or stop the biting. Is there any truth to this?
That is my understanding. Redirect, redirect, redirect. It IS a lot of work ! It went fairly easily with my first pup Force, but has been a lot more challenging with Vodka. She is finally biting other things more than me :mrgreen:
Rob C wrote: 2) I read that you don't want to pet the puppies head.....? That you only want to pet the puppies back and chest, or under the chin?
???? That's a new one to me. Maybe someone else can chime in ? My puppies are petted everywhere.
Rob C wrote:Thank you for all of the information! I just figured those are questions that any responsible person would ask before training an animal in that type of work rather than risk having a loose cannon.
A stable dog of correct temperament with the correct training will NEVER be a loose cannon.
That being said, a stable dog with the correct temperament, can get screwed up by bad training !!! That is why it's SO important to train with a good knowledgable group.
From your posts, it sounds like this will be your first IPO dog and first Dutch Shepherd. Please take your time and find a good group to work with.
Be careful of videos, write ups online about puppy raising/bite training. Don't randomly try stuff with your pup at home because you read about it or saw a video online. Many of these articles/videos are incorrect and could be very detrimental to your 'correct puppy raising'.

Rob C wrote:Have you ever noticed any difference in the sport between male and female dogs? Is one suited to it better than another? I've just read that some people would rather use females for agility, and males for IPO (Thanks for the info on that ). Would there be a difference in prey drive or workability, physicality, etc?
Other than males *usually* being larger and stronger than females ( not always the case ), the only 'reported' difference is that *usually* females are more biddable.
The females for agility you're hearing about is more based on size. Prey drive, workability etc is all individual related ( other than the girls may be a little more biddable ), not sex related.
UWP Vrijheid's Force IPO3,FH2,AD,TDX,OSP,L2C,CGC,CD,APR1,TDU,NA,NF,L3I,TG-N,TN-N,NAJ,VCD1,CSL1-F,CSL1-H,L1E,CA,L2E, ELT-CH,L3V

Vrijheid's Qahlua IPO3,L2I,L3CI,L3E,NJP,NAP,OFP,NW3 Elite,L2V,TD

Van Kracht's Absolut Fury ( in training )
Sugars Mom
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Tell us about yourself: I adopted a Dutch Shepherd mix (without knowing what she was) from the SPCA here in Victoria BC and am now trying to learn everything I can about this breed. My husband and I work from home most of the time so I thought it was time to get a puppy! We have his 2 boys here half the time and we wanted a nice family dog.

Sugar looks like a miniature Dutch Shepherd with floppy ears, and has every ounce of DS traits in her little body!

I hope to learn from other DS owners and share doggy experiences.
Location: Victoria BC

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Sugars Mom »

Rob C wrote: 2) I read that you don't want to pet the puppies head.....? That you only want to pet the puppies back and chest, or under the chin?


???? That's a new one to me. Maybe someone else can chime in ? My puppies are petted everywhere.
I can tell you that if you reach out to pet Sugar on the head, she will back away. If you reach under her chin to give her a pet, she is good with that.

Cesar says that going over top of a dog is a dominate behaviour with dogs, so a non confident dog should be petted under the chin where their head is being raised up, thus raising their confidence, and a more dominate or confident dog can be petted on the head.
Sue (and Sugar)

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Raven
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Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Raven »

Rob, based on the overall theme of your post, was your question about not petting the head based on calming during bite work?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Rob C
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:20 pm
Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Hey guys. Raven, thank you for the information! Well what I meant about the head petting was that I've read that you shouldn't pet the puppy on the top of the head. Only under the chin, the ears sometimes, chest, and down their back? But that you should avoid petting the top of the head. I wasn't sure what the reason behind it would be that's why I asked. Figured maybe someone else would know about that?
Rob C
Vancouver, WA
Sugars Mom
Working Dog
Posts: 1734
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 am
Tell us about yourself: I adopted a Dutch Shepherd mix (without knowing what she was) from the SPCA here in Victoria BC and am now trying to learn everything I can about this breed. My husband and I work from home most of the time so I thought it was time to get a puppy! We have his 2 boys here half the time and we wanted a nice family dog.

Sugar looks like a miniature Dutch Shepherd with floppy ears, and has every ounce of DS traits in her little body!

I hope to learn from other DS owners and share doggy experiences.
Location: Victoria BC

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Sugars Mom »

Only thing I can think of is how it could possibly be interperted by an insecure pup (or dog) as a threatening move if done too quickly for their comfort level...?
Sue (and Sugar)

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Rob C
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Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. And like you said, over the top being dominant to dogs, maybe it lowers their confidence and later influences their work drive maybe....? Or their confidence in it, etc.? Thanks for all of your guy's/gals info. It definitely helps talking to people who have experience with this type of thing versus just reading and going "Oh ok, guess that's what I should do."
Rob C
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icvanstra
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Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by icvanstra »

Sue - keep in mind that Cesar is a TV personality and works with people who have messed up their pets. On the rare occasions I have watched his show I have never seem him work with dogs trained for one of the Sports.

on that note...

I pet my dogs on the head all the time. BUT, my neighbor kids I continually reminded them to pet them from below. The only reason for this was that the neighbor boys were a little afraid of the dogs. they would bring there hand in to pet them on top, the dog would raise its head, the boy would whip their hands way ... game on.

I'm of the opinion that I should be be able to touch anywhere on my dogs and not have a reaction. Takes time and patience.
Eric
  • - Cino vom Foxtal
    - Abigail NORML de Weijer (over the bridge)
    - Hannah the DS wanna be (over the bridge)
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Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Raven »

I'm of the opinion that I should be be able to touch anywhere on my dogs and not have a reaction. Takes time and patience.


What Eric said.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Rob C
Puppy
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:20 pm
Tell us about yourself: I live in Washington state, and I'm just trying to find out about the Dutch Shepherd breed and thought this might be a good place to start.

Re: Schutzhund question?

Post by Rob C »

Ok. I was just confused why that would make a difference, so I just thought I'd throw it out there and see what came back.
Rob C
Vancouver, WA
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