help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

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help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby rocker665 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:09 am

I recently and looking to buy a Dutch Shepherd puppy and was wondering if this is a legit kennel i dont want to get ripped off or get a junk dog.

www.aachendutchshepherds.com

any help is greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks guys!
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby icvanstra » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:49 pm

Chris,

I can't personally attest to them.

But...

Just from their website I see a couple of flags that make me wonder

- the fact that they have FCI-KNPV registered dogs.
- the testimonials, IMHO, do not appear real
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    - Abigail NORML de Weijer (over the bridge)
    - Hannah the DS wanna be (over the bridge)
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby Marjolein » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:10 pm

Ask them for the names of their FCI dogs, it will be easy to check for me (i'm Dutch). The sire they have seems to be half FCI, but I'm not entirely sure... ;)
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby vneerland » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:37 am

"our newest European Import, Biwi, SchH I, SchH II, SchH III, IPO I, IPO II, IPO III, VPG I, VPG II, VPG III!
Biwi is a BONO PEGGE son~the only Bono Pegge son in the Western Hemisphere
!"

I will openly call that bullsh**.
First of all, if your dog is a SCH3, it will have to be a Sch1 first, so it is utterly redundant to list things like this, other than to impress the gullible. To list Schutzhund and IPO titles side by side is more of the same. (program) so that too is a bit enthusiastic.
Secondly. Bono Pegge had more than ONE son, in whatever hemisphere, and he is not an FCI dog. That does not mean that Biwi, whoever he is, is not a good dog. He may very well be, but the site as so many superlatives, that I do understand the question if they are legit.

"All pups are sired by our FCI Belgium Import BANDIT HOF TER STEENVELD, who is the ONLY son of RINGO VAN DE VASTENOW in the United States~KNPV IPO I, IPO II, IPO III, Mondio Ring I, Mondio Ring II, Mondio Ring III, BR IV, UV, VZH, FH I, Wh I, Belgishe Ring IV, TAT plus served with the Belgian Air Force in Afghanistan NATO Airbase, as well as a trained rescue dog who will enter buildings and woods to find people in need~or our KNPV German Import BIWI, who not only is the ONLY Bono Pegge son in the Western Hemisphere, but is also multiple titled in SchH I, SchH II, SchH III, IPO I, IPO II, IPO III, VPG I, VPG II, VPG III. Biwi is also available for sire service via frozen semen.
Continuing the tradition of these heroic and incredible canines here at Aachen Dutch Shepherds, ALL OF OUR DOGS ARE 100% EUROPEAN KNPV-FCI bred to follow in their bloodline heritage!
"

Ringo is NOT KNPV titled. And there is no KNPV in Germany where Biwi is alledgedly from, so I have a bit of a hard time believing the statement that 'all our dogs are 100% European KNPV FCI bred' How, if the sires are not KNPV and one of them not even out of a KNPV stud? :?

My personal rule is that if I do not trust someone, I am usually right (or in the very least, we are not going to have a good working relationship) Follow your own instinct.
JMO.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby rocker665 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:17 am

I had a friend of mine check out the kennel weather or not there liars about the titles i couldn't tell you. I'm simply looking for a pet quality dog at a decent price, the kennel checked out to be a legit kennel so i shouldn't get screwed over on the dog. I'm taking 100% precautions on this puppy but i am going to buy a Fawn Colored male dog from them i should have by December 20th. ill let you guys know more info as i found out. but for pet quality dogs she seems to be the cheapest Ive found without getting too cheep for the breed. Thank you for all the Advice and replying to my post i really appreciate it! Wish me luck
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby cake73 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:31 pm

rocker665 wrote:I had a friend of mine check out the kennel weather or not there liars about the titles i couldn't tell you. I'm simply looking for a pet quality dog at a decent price, the kennel checked out to be a legit kennel so i shouldn't get screwed over on the dog. I'm taking 100% precautions on this puppy but i am going to buy a Fawn Colored male dog from them i should have by December 20th. ill let you guys know more info as i found out. but for pet quality dogs she seems to be the cheapest Ive found without getting too cheep for the breed. Thank you for all the Advice and replying to my post i really appreciate it! Wish me luck



If you're looking for a pet quality dog, you could also look into rescuing one, IMHO. There are lots of awesome pet quality dogs in rescue.


ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue
http://www.malinoisrescue.org/
or
North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org/
Cheryl in MA, with rescued DS
Kaya, adopted January 2006 (over the bridge, September 2014)
Marley, adopted February 2008


North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue
https://www.facebook.com/NADSR.DSRescue
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby asheleylane » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:59 pm

Thanks Judith, trying to keep my mouth shut here but I have to add
REGARDLESS of if you just want a pet-quality dog, you want a HEALTHY dog and hip dysplasia (or other problems) are just as devastating to a pet as to a working dog!!!
Please, PLEASE ask for proof of hip and elbow screenings, and know what they mean (sorry, but a rating of C- hips or borderline dysplastic is admittedly a "rating" but not one that should be bred) even if you want a pet... or check into rescue, poor Christie is working on 5 probable DS in shelters just this week :cry: .

Also, a fawn dog is a x malinois... just as a brindle KNPV line dog is considered a x Dutch Shepherd. People calling fawn dogs Dutch Shepherds are pretty much trying to make money without even having stripes, and often justify their breeding practices by saying "that is what the Dutch KNPV breeders do". True, and two brindle dogs can produce fawn offspring, but also in Holland - they call the fawn dogs x malinois, and they also make no claims about breeding "FCI" or "pedigreed" Dutch shepherds, the point is to breed the best working dogs.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby vneerland » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:11 am

asheleylane wrote:Thanks Judith, trying to keep my mouth shut here but I have to add


:lol: I was considering keeping my mouth shut too, since it looks bad for any breeder to pass judgement. But then it got the best of me, simply because I cannot refrain from calling a spade a spade. :oops:

Also, a fawn dog is a x malinois... just as a brindle KNPV line dog is considered a x Dutch Shepherd. People calling fawn dogs Dutch Shepherds are pretty much trying to make money without even having stripes, and often justify their breeding practices by saying "that is what the Dutch KNPV breeders do". True, and two brindle dogs can produce fawn offspring, but also in Holland - they call the fawn dogs x malinois, and they also make no claims about breeding "FCI" or "pedigreed" Dutch shepherds, the point is to breed the best working dogs.


I assume Aachen's way around that is to have "FCI" stock, and in that case, fawn dogs will indeed be listed as DS's, but with a notation on the pedigree that says something like color not permitted. Said dogs will not be elligeable for breeding or shows, but they are still called DS's. There are some long haired fawn dogs in the FCI genepool and some rare short and even rough hairs as well.
Of course, the practice in KNPV is as you describe. But KNPV is rarely fully papered FCI.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby Moonbeam13 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:47 pm

rocker665 wrote:I had a friend of mine check out the kennel...


Perhaps your friend lives close enough to go for a visit and let us know what is found?
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby aachendutchshepherds » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:16 pm

I am writing in response to these derogatory remarks.
To put the record straight~Biwi is KNPV, imported from Germany, and not to be redundant, but yes, he has earned every one of those titles, and the reason I list them out is FOR the people who do not understand how that all works~you would be amazed at the number of people that do not know or understand what all the abbreviations stand for. He must be the "real deal", as his new owners LOVE him, and they also saw his credentials, scorebook, award certificates, etc..and were THRILLED to have such a magnificient dog. I will be posting of all of his titlework, his scorebook, his passport, and even the Luftansa air cargo billing where he flew into us from Frankfurt to Dallas online here~as soon as I figure out how to do that~and after I return from driving a friend of ours to her doctor's appointment for her broken arm!
As regards my testimonials, I am very proud of our clients and they are NOT Bulls**t. These again, can be proven and validated to anyone who wishes to contact me personally. I am highly protective of my dogs and my business, just because of crap like this. I just found this all very distasteful and unprofessional and would have expected more from fellow Dutch Shepherd lovers, but it is evident that some people are more interested in promoting their agenda for their own dogs at the expense of slamming someone else.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby asheleylane » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:10 pm

Please re-read my post, there is not one deragartoy remark directed towards you or a particular dog. I will admit, unless I have met and personally worked a dog I do not know what it is or is not.
My remarks, to clarify - are to ALL people inquiring about and looking for Dutch Shepherds... please understand the breed, genetic health problems, and get absolute proof of good-normal screenings. Also knowing what is and is not a Dutch Shepherd, the difference between FCI and KNPV breeding, and what to expect from a dog from one of those gene pools are ALL part of making an educated, responsible choice. Heck, perhaps they will decide a collie is a better dog for them and that is absolutely fine - but ignorance is the enemy IMO.
A second clarification - upon looking in bloedlijnen, it seems Biwi is titled, likely a nice dog - listed in the pedigree database with photos BRN 10705. So if he has obtained FCI papers and he is from KNPV lines so that he is effectively both. Again, not that I ever questioned that or anything at all about him or any other dog. I discussed the breeding practices of the Dutch people, Biwi is a KNPV line dog and is photographed and listed as a x malinois, something not mentioned or pictured anywhere in your Dutch Shepherd site.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby aachendutchshepherds » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:28 am

I have re-read the posts~ironically, I've actually recommended people to you Asheley, when I have not had a pup available at the time they needed one. Just in the last couple weeks, I spoke with a lady that has Leonbergers (spelling)~and she asked me to recommend another reputable breeder, and I gave her your information. Perhaps you have spoken with her? She said she wasn't going to be ready to think about getting another pup for probably another 6 months to a year. Lovely lady~she had imported her Leonburger from Ireland.
The exception I guess I take with your posts~the timing and placement~is that the IMPLICATION is that through the advice you posted, but since this topic was about our kennel, the "read between the lines" subliminal message or inference/parallel to draw is, and especially since you also capitalize certain words, is to imply that we have perhaps unhealthy or dysplastic dogs. Not only do every one of our pups have their USDA health inspection certificate before they leave here, whether they are flown or people drive in to get their pups, but we STAND BEHIND OUR DOGS~with complete genetic health, hip and elbow, and even working guarantees.
~further, you then advise someone to consider to adopt a rescue~as an alternative to getting a pup! Again, since this question was from a client of ours, whom by the way, yes Chris, or rocker665, I did just receive your deposit, thankyou~babies are doing wonderful~that perhaps someone should consider a rescue instead. Rescues are all fine and good I guess if you want a reject or problem dog generally! We have seen enough of them, and not just this breed, but many breeds,~matter of fact, my husband and I traveled to do a "leg" of a foster drive for a dog coming out of TX into OK into foster care~all coordinated thru California with Trudy~one of her fosters asked me for the favor, as he is a client of ours and has not only been here, but also has brought several of HIS clients here to get their DS pups from us~we fostered or housed, or whatever term you want to use for the couple of days we had him~and honestly, THAT dog should have been euthanized. He was a typical American bred junk dog. Oversized, wide as a picket fence, disposition like a rattlesnake, ugly, ugly, ugly~and oh yeah, but he was "brindled", but I've seen too many American breds that look like a cross between a pitbull and ??, a hounddog and ???, a German Shepherd and ???~pretty much, whatever throws a brindle coat pattern~by golly, it's a "Dutch Shepherd". I would think that the DS community would be excited to have "new blood" introduced from Europe into generally what overall has been a very inbred, closed genepool found here in the US. But, that's also another way to get those "fashionable" black DS that lately seems to be the color fad of choice or request~I tell those inquires there is no such animal. The only way to get solid black DS is by piss poor breeding practices, ie, inbreeding continually INTO THE SAME GENEPOOL, grandsons, granddaughters etc...all back into the same family lines with no new infusion of an outcross line~but oops, I forget, how would they know that if YOU DIDN"T HAVE A PEDIGREE, sorry, getting tired of sugar coating the truth, OR, by introducing a dominant black gened dog into the breed, such as I don't know, Great dane, black lab, black GSD, gee, what other black dog breeds are there out there that can express the black coat phenotypically~and the last option to produce "solid black DS", minutely so, with the very small percentage 1% I believe it is or less, or a SHOW line of black Belgian Malinois~and by most people's arguments, the odds of a SHOW line mixing in with a WORKING line are like mixing poo and icecream~so THAT possibility seems very remote...... The variety and quality of the domestic bloodlines has recently become better~directly due to the importation of new European dogs~however~we prefer to "go to the wellspring" of the breed, where they created, maintain and set the standard FOR the breed~that is why we have European dogs. PERIOD. In Europe, they recommend using the Belgian Malinois about every third generation to keep the "Dutch a Dutch". All these dogs are from the same family tree, just became specialize due to coat color or type, and sometimes location of where the dog was created.
Unlike other breeders who get the solid fawn colored Dutch Shepherd puppies, and pass them off as "Malinois", as it is quite frankly I would imagine easier to do that than to explain the Mendelian Laws of Inheritance, the recessive red gene coloration, and as I explain to all my clients that are doing business with us~the "malinois" colored DS is a recessive gene type expressed phenotypically, as genetically, obviously, there is a recessive red gene at work in most lines of KNPV DS~not all~due to the fact that in Europe, they DO use the Belgian Malinois in the KNPV lines to 1) keep the work drives up
2) keep the size of the dog up 3) keep the brindle coloration I am asked if our dogs that are solid colored then are Belgian Malinois' to which I respond, Noooo...they are DUTCH SHEPHERD via breeding/bloodlines~layman's analogy~like if you breed two spotted appaloosa horses together, and get a solid colored foal~it is STILL an Appaloosa by breeding~it doesn't become an Arabian or Thoroughbred, just because it didn't spot out, or "change breeds".
Yes, absoluetly, we are always striving for top working dogs, for us and our clients~we have both KNPV and FCI~and I've often found true too that "those that do not have it, knock it"~especially that excuse of "oh, we don't care about papers or pedigree, we just care about a working dog"~well, without the pedigree, how in the HECK do you know what you have, other than a mutt, I call bloodlines, pedigrees, all of it, "the blueprint to the future", as through the pedigree, you can tell, longevity, temperament, soundness issues, size at maturation, drives, or inheritable traits such as a "simple" thing as do the dogs have strong ear cartilage to have "erect eared" pups versus "flop eared" dogs, etc..
You're right though, if I just wanted "mutts"~I wouldn't have wasted my time or money with going to Europe repeatedly or having dogs flown in here~I would have bought American breds. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN DOGS~from anything usually "American bred" versus dogs "European bred"~and you can apply that statement to about ANY breed of dog. The HARDEST obstacle I had to overcome was the Americans who came before, or what Americans tend to do with all breeds of dogs~is to colorize, super size or tiny-ize it, can't leave well enough alone. The Europeans flat told me to my face that "we Americans are no good, we ruin dogs". Hard to argue that point overall, generally. OBVIOUSLY~they must have realized my devotion, seriousness and passion for their Dutch Shepherds. As for those of you that do not know "how it works" over there, pretty much if they like and approve of you, then they may think about letting you purchase one of their dogs~maybe."
We just imported an FCI bitch, she is excellent on the hips and tops on the back, she is IPO I, II, and III ~sorry Judith, if this offends, but yes, there are ALOT of people new to the sports of working dogs that would NOT automatically "know" that a dog first has to have an I or a II to get a III first~she is to die for, she is EVERYTHING a Dutch Shepherd should be~she is what we and everyone else should aspire to for the breed~and here's the kicker. BECAUSE OF OUR REPUTATION~the owners FLEW THE DOG TO US FIRST, on the verbal agreement of payment for her. Can you imagine someone doing that~to fly a dog halfway around the world to someone they had not met, but because of an introduction from another person we have received dogs from, and boarded them to be trained and titled, etc...send the dog to us with the promise to pay. I too have my "dog or puppy payments"~to the tune of alittle under a 1000. a month~so you can danged sure gosh darn bet I'm more than alittle agitated over any slurry comments or inferences made. Or put it this way, my dogs aren't the only ones who can be a bitch~and what a shame and waste of emotion, time and energy, I had much happier plans and thoughts today than have to address another somewhat both veiled, and direct attempt, to cause my kennel, my dogs, my everything, what I have literally devoted my life to, and every day of every week of every month and year, day in and day out.
I've never tried to make any of this personal, but "enough is enough". I will INVEST more in our latest European arrival, and have been, for the past 8 months, and will continue to, for the next six months, than what most people spend monthly on their house note. I do put my money where my mouth is~the financial investment we have in our dogs alone, would cause most people to faint. Most people don't, won't, or can't do that. I also in the same breath say that we have worked hard a lifetime, and work hard everyday, and we are blessed and fortunate to be able to travel to Europe or even afford the calibre of dogs we have and offer folks pups from~so you'll have to forgive me if I get alittle testy when my efforts or kennel or dogs are ridiculed, put down, questioned or maligned. I take EXTREME offense to that. Judith~I have always commented with people about what a great accomplishment your dog~what's his name, Nico, Nero?? I forget, but what an accomplishment for him to, if I have that correct, come from Europe, be trained here, than go back to Europe and win his KNPV title? Actually, I had both phoned and emailed you originally years ago when I was looking for Dutch Shepherds~but I didn't even get the courtesy of either a return phone call or email response from you, even so much as to say.."thanks for asking, but we don't have anything available right now, etc..or even a referral to another breeder, say, Asheley, or someone else." But, since I really didn't want to go thru any "middleman or woman"~everyone kept telling me get ahold of Filo or Marcos or I forget now who that I think you work with~but again, I didn't want to be sold a brokered dog~as we all know the saying there~generally, they are the culls and rejects!
Bottom line is~I'm here to tell you, that my dogs and I are here to stay, and you'll be hearing from us for years to come. Now I've got to get off this forum, and answer an email from a police officer who is a dogfriend/client of ours, deployed overseas with a private firm, wanting to visit about training up explosive detection dogs for them. And I guarantee you will be hearing about the super placements of our dogs for years to come. Anybody that is getting a puppy from us, is welcome to our client reference list of contacts. If this is all what you guys have to do with your Dutch Shepherd forum~I'm way too busy to fool around with this type of time wasting aggravation.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby vneerland » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:44 am

aachendutchshepherds wrote: The only way to get solid black DS is by piss poor breeding practices, ie, inbreeding continually INTO THE SAME GENEPOOL, grandsons, granddaughters etc...all back into the same family lines with no new infusion of an outcross line~but oops, I forget, how would they know that if YOU DIDN"T HAVE A PEDIGREE, sorry, getting tired of sugar coating the truth, OR, by introducing a dominant black gened dog into the breed, such as I don't know, Great dane, black lab, black GSD, gee, what other black dog breeds are there out there that can express the black coat phenotypically~and the last option to produce "solid black DS", minutely so, with the very small percentage 1% I believe it is or less, or a SHOW line of black Belgian Malinois~and by most people's arguments, the odds of a SHOW line mixing in with a WORKING line are like mixing poo and icecream~so THAT possibility seems very remote......


Uh. No. You do not get solid black DS due to inbreeding. Sorry. You are right that it will take a dominant black "K 'dog for that. The recessive black 'aa' in malinois so rare, that that is virtually impossible to end up in the DS who does not have it. But inbreeding will not make black DS's. Ever. In a million years.

In Europe, they recommend using the Belgian Malinois about every third generation to keep the "Dutch a Dutch". All these dogs are from the same family tree, just became specialize due to coat color or type, and sometimes location of where the dog was created.


Do they now? :lol: No, I am sorry. They don't recommend that.

Unlike other breeders who get the solid fawn colored Dutch Shepherd puppies, and pass them off as "Malinois", as it is quite frankly I would imagine easier to do that than to explain the Mendelian Laws of Inheritance, the recessive red gene coloration, and as I explain to all my clients that are doing business with us~the "malinois" colored DS is a recessive gene type expressed phenotypically, as genetically, obviously, there is a recessive red gene at work in most lines of KNPV DS~not all~due to the fact that in Europe, they DO use the Belgian Malinois in the KNPV lines to 1) keep the work drives up
2) keep the size of the dog up 3) keep the brindle coloration I am asked if our dogs that are solid colored then are Belgian Malinois' to which I respond, Noooo...they are DUTCH SHEPHERD via breeding/bloodlines~layman's analogy~like if you breed two spotted appaloosa horses together, and get a solid colored foal~it is STILL an Appaloosa by breeding~it doesn't become an Arabian or Thoroughbred, just because it didn't spot out, or "change breeds".


The trouble is that you advertise FCI bloodlines. There are NHC members on this list that will quickly tell you that you (r statements) are mixing and matching preferences to suit your needs?
KNPV does indeed cross x MH and x HH back and forth. For no particular reason, mind you. It has nothing to do with size. Or drives for that matter. Breeding priciples are simply when two people who hapen to know each other, or who happen to know of a dog that they like, enter into an agreement to breed their dogs together. With brindle being dominant, a Malinois x DS cross will mostly produce 50% brindle, possibly even more (if the DS parent happens to be homozygous brindle) Of course, you are advertising your dogs as FCI. So no malinois in the mix. So all of the above statements of entering malinios into the breed do not apply. In which case you are probably suitably horrified of finding that recessive ''ky' in your lines. Right?

We just imported an FCI bitch, she is excellent on the hips and tops on the back, she is IPO I, II, and III ~sorry Judith, if this offends, but yes, there are ALOT of people new to the sports of working dogs that would NOT automatically "know" that a dog first has to have an I or a II to get a III


That is the job of the breeder, to eductate. :mrgreen: If someone knows the slightest iota about working dog titles, they will know that you have to have a I before a III. Only if you are trying or needing to fluff things up, would there be a need to list everthing under the sun. But yeah, I guess some like it fluffy.

Bottom line is~I'm here to tell you, that my dogs and I are here to stay, and you'll be hearing from us for years to come. Now I've got to get off this forum, and answer an email from a police officer who is a dogfriend/client of ours, deployed overseas with a private firm, wanting to visit about training up explosive detection dogs for them. And I guarantee you will be hearing about the super placements of our dogs for years to come. Anybody that is getting a puppy from us, is welcome to our client reference list of contacts. If this is all what you guys have to do with your Dutch Shepherd forum~I'm way too busy to fool around with this type of time wasting aggravation.


I don't think there is a problem with anyone loving the DS. Or anyone selecting and breeding their DS's according to their vision. I will maintain though, that you would do yourself a great favor if you went a little lighter on the absolute statements, some of which are false (example: Ringo van de Vastenow is not KNPV titled) or misleading (example: Biwi as a DS and Biwi as KNPV titled) or just plain over the top. (example: the only Bono son in the western hemisphere) You certainly have a right to your opinion and your plans for dogs. But expect to be called out when what you represent is not the truth.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby bayca » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:56 pm

I can't say anything about the quality of these dogs. But I know the the breed club in Holland and Germany doesn't support this kind of breeding.

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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby Moonbeam13 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:16 pm

What do you mean?
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby Christie M » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:29 am

aachendutchshepherds wrote:Rescues are all fine and good I guess if you want a reject or problem dog generally! We have seen enough of them, and not just this breed, but many breeds,~matter of fact, my husband and I traveled to do a "leg" of a foster drive for a dog coming out of TX into OK into foster care~all coordinated thru California with Trudy~one of her fosters asked me for the favor, as he is a client of ours and has not only been here, but also has brought several of HIS clients here to get their DS pups from us~we fostered or housed, or whatever term you want to use for the couple of days we had him~and honestly, THAT dog should have been euthanized. He was a typical American bred junk dog. Oversized, wide as a picket fence, disposition like a rattlesnake, ugly, ugly, ugly~and oh yeah, but he was "brindled",


As the President and Founder of the North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue, I would like to thank you for your time, effort and resources to help this dog. I am a firm believer that ANYONE who produces Dutch Shepherd puppies should be very involved in the rescue effort. No matter how careful any of us are, there will always be unreputable people who end up putting our dogs, or future generations of our dogs, into rescue care. If we reproduce, it is our responsibility to help clean up the mess that is ultimately created.

I am very sure that the dog's new home is very glad that the fate of this "ugly, ugly, ugly" dog did not lie in your hands. You are upset about judgement being placed on you, and yet here you are. Openly saying horrible things about an animal that is now a loved and loving companion in someone's home. He is family. Probably more so than the dogs that live in your house, since he is not one of many (PLEASE don't go off and say that I think you don't love your dogs. Of course you do.....but he was not purchased just to reproduce him or herself). He is simply loved. And his owners are likely forum member who are now reading your "ugly, ugly, ugly" post about their pet.

Additionally, please educate yourself on rescue before making gross generalizations. The majority of our dogs are NOT "rejects or problem dogs." Are they in the process of rehoming?? Yes. But most of the time, it is not the dog, but the original owners that were the problem. I doubt that your high end working dogs could go live successfully in a one bedroom apartment with no socialization, exercise and 5 toddlers running around. They are bound to get frustrated from a lack of mental and physical stimulation and destroy a few stuffed animals. That is the case with most of the dogs that we take in. Once they are placed in a home that understands that they are a working breed who needs training and exercise, they are very successful. I understand that you had one DS come through you in need of rescue, and that you have seen many other breeds. However, your sample size of one DS is inadequate to pass judgement on Dutch rescues as a whole.

Many of us have been involved with DS for many years. I have working them for just over 10 years, and I am still a newbie. However, few of us need an education on the superiority of the imports or the breeding practices of the Dutch who compete in KNPV. What you fail to acknowledge is that although they outcross, even they are honest in their breedings and call the dogs what they are - Mechler X or Hollander X.

Lastly, maybe you can take a step back and see that NO ONE is questioning the quality of your dogs. I doubt any of us have physically seen more than one of your dogs ever. People were offering commentary based on the content of your website. When you post huge claims and present your dogs as the very best in the country, you are bound to get backlash. A less lavish description would have saved you all of this argument. The working dog people on this forum are trying to do the same thing you are: produce excellent dogs that will fulfill any job that is needed. Its the over the top presentation that makes people not trust. Those are the only comments that were truly made. No open attacks - simply "I would be suspicious because of this statement...." Maybe it could simply be taken as constructive criticism.
Christie Meyer
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http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby aachendutchshepherds » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:26 am

WOW~Judith unlocked the post~the other night when she made her rant, er, I mean statements, she locked it. How convenient. Wish I was an moderator or administrator of a site so I can play "DOG GOD" and then not let other people play, vote or have a word in edgewise or God forbid, different than those owned and postulated by the Dog Gods! :roll: I always thought America was about the free exchange of different ideas, philosphies, OPINIONS, etc...silly me, what was I thinking?! Oh, but wait, you're not from here~so that makes you an "import %#%itch" too! :lol: Well, maybe the folks that you talk to or know don't use the Mal~but the ones I did, do! :) Again, just a difference of vision (that's about the one thing or word you actually have written that I like, so I'm gonna borrow it), and correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm SURE you will~but even your Nico if you look at the pedigree back far enough, has MALINOIS in him. Not listed as "Mix Malinios", although quite alot of those, but as "Malinois".
Christie, you're welcome for the help. I wasn't the only one who thought that rescue/rehome was ugly. When that very nice gal from Tulsa got here, and MAN, did she have a NICE NICE NICE GORGEOUS GORGEOUS GORGOUS whopping GSD~husband sent her thru the house to the backyard as I was out there with one of my dogs. Funny thing is~she goes..."WOW! IS THAT HIM~HE'S GORGOUS!" You could just tell she was all excited. I go "NOooo. That's one of my own pups~let me get yours". So I bring him out, and although it's probably not verbatim, pretty doggone close~imagine similar to a quasi shriek, and she goes "OMG~he's ugly~he doesn't even look like a Dutch Shepherd!" And no, this is absolutely where we digress~you can "fix" a dogs problems, whether man made or born with, to an extent, but, the animal will usually revert back to their prior behaviors/nature if pressed, in a situation, scared~whatever. Unless the people who get those dogs are capable of "holding a problem dog together". Agreed, alot of "problem" dogs or rescues are manmade, but it doesn't change the fact that they can come with issues or baggage. Sure~that dog was out of sorts, scared, alot of strange and new, but a DOGBITE IS A DOGBITE, NO MATTER WHAT THE MOTIVATION. It is nice to KNOW the motivation, to help "fix" it, avoid it, correct it~whatever~but that dog tried to bite when you touched him, tried to worm him, everything. From the shape he arrived in~we doubted he would have even ever had a rabies vacs or other vacs~he certainly hadn't been wormed or fed, so I seriously doubt anyone had sprung any bucks for proper vet care. So~you're right on that end~he should be called "lucky"~and I'm glad he's in a new home and salvaged~but sometimes the hardest part of BEING responsible dog owners, is NOT keeping the bad ones around. He came out of Texas~so who's breeding that?!?! And he's not the only dog or DS I've re-homed, but he is the only one that went thru your group. Today, on the way to the vets for a health check for a pup flying out and a cat spay, again I saw along the road a Golden Retriever, she's apparently had pups, nowhere in site, skinny and skittish. Out here though~alot of people let their dogs run, so it's not unusual to see, as I did today, an Irish Setter, I don't know how many mix breeds, a corgi, my neighbors bloodhound come to visit~it can be covered up out here where we live~it's a favorite dumping grounds for dogs. I used to take them in, called them my "street strays", find them homes, all on our own, all on our own nickel, never asked for a dime of support from anyone~but I stopped because of worries over similar to the above, besides the disease factor~and literally, every day you could have a half dozen or so. BUT~since so many people let their dogs run loose, you don't know who's lost, strayed, dumped, or just wandering~although you can kinda tell~dumped dogs have that behavior and "look" about them. It's the way they act when you go by. That corgi that I saw trotting up the road turned out to be a person's in the area~I was on the phone dogtalking with a police officer dog owner of ours, so when I got off the phone I asked hubby what the neighbors wanted. He told me they were looking for their Corgi. I drove to their house to tell them at 6:30 I had seen that dog trotting north up the road at 2:30 this afternoon.
Finally~as far as my choice of webpage wording, etc...y'all don't get to vote. How 'bout you run your stuff the way you want to, and I'll run mine the way I want to. AND~in the future, if I ever want any of you to be my "webpage analysts or advisors", I'll hire ya. WHY would or should someone expect some "backlash" over a statement of fact? Let me go look at each and everyone of your websites and point out the "over the top" or whatever things that I don't like or agree with. HEY~I've also had a World Champion Cutting horse~is that also then "over the top" for those that don't have one?! :D
I'd like to think that we would all be on the same page for promoting the DS~but this "cyber bullying" is really some cheap shots gals and guys~I for one, am going to try and rise above it and take the high road. Y'all have a nice life. :stickman:
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby turnnburn52984 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:59 am

Not to butt into a conversation- but they were only replying to a legitimate question.

:)

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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby Aztechalo » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:51 am

I'm not a breeder, I'm a consumer so I feel compelled to add put my two sense in...but then my better sense says to me, if I do, he/she might come back and respond. Again. Also, my head might explode mid rant. :shodan: I'm just thankful that I can direct others to a site like this so they can get an understanding of responsible breeding, truth in advertising and a sense of the community that such wonderful dogs foster. Thank you all for being wonderful, mature people. I'm not sure where my next dog is coming from, but I'm sure where it's not coming from.
Marsha and Chaos (4 yo, DS)

In all Chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.
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Re: help! Wondering if this kennel is a Legitimate kennel!!!

Postby icvanstra » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:06 pm

All - as the owner of this website I locked this post for a short time the other night. I did this prior to knowing that anyone had posted an additional response. It was locked for about 12 hours. This is not the first time that I have locked a post and it will not be the last time.

Aachendutchshepherds - you agreed to the rules of the forum. Free discussion is welcome here. Name calling and becoming abusive is not. Just as much as you want to "read between" the lines on previous post it is just as easy to read between the lines of you name calling. This is your first warning.

Also, either start signing your individual post or create a signature within the software.

Eric
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