Dutch Shepherd Forum

agh! i just typed out a big old reply and my browser reloaded -_-

i apreciate all of your input and i think ill look for a prong today, but if they dont stock them here it could be a week or two before i get one overseas.

as for stacy i dont take offence, however ive never forced cuddles with demon. hes the one crawling onto my lap and doing wiggle-butt circles around me (: the thing before was that hed get up onto my lap and after a few seconds get into a bit of a "wait a second i dont want to be here" and start growling to get down (id just be sitting there motionless the whole time, maybe he had a touch of claustrophobia?) thats stopped completely though and he begs for his belly rubs up on the bed now.

i mentioned the disastrous trainer because when i went for the behavioral consultation the man put a huge choke chain on demon (i had never been to a trainer before so i thought id wait and see how it goes)
he started dragging demon around the block yelling "heel heel!", demon hasnt learnt to heel yet so took a negative reaction to the chain being tugged every time he lagged behind. he started to lunge at the trainer every time he yanked the chain and tore his arm into ribbons.
the trainer tripped and fell right ontop of demon during, but worse, as he blindly ran down the road yelling heel he managed to force demon to run right into a lampost, the chain then got wrapped around and as the man wasnt paying attention he continued to run. demon was then trapped and strangled around the pole, i had to intervene.
as the trainer crossed the road demon kept trying to run back to me and away from him, this resulted in a strong yank of the chain and demon latched onto the mans arm. as they struggled in the street a car approached and beeped to pass, demon then redirected and lunged twards the car... that seems to be when this whole car chasing thing started.

i wont be returning to said trainer

(it seems crazy talking about a puppy lunging at someone, hes so gentle with me..)

That trainer needs to not train anymore !!! Take this super slow. He has been traumatized. Poor dog. I can totally see the pup doing what he did. This is not your ordinary breed and I would think this trainer had no idea what he was doing. Sadie would have also tore him to shreds.

Oh My GOSH!
That trainer doesn't need to be training ANY dogs...ever! I feel horrible for you!!!
Like Lisa said, he has been traumatized (poor guy!!) take it super slow. Baby steps. Sometimes we have to go backwards to go forwards.
Some dogs don't take to the prong, (e.g. Sharon's Thor), so don't push it if he doesn't do well on it.
Kira's examples with Hendrix are excellent to a. figure out his favorite training treat, and b. keep him focused on you.
Also, any training you do with him (no matter how elementary) is going to build trust and relationship. Have fun training simple and fun things during the in-between times that you are working on this. It will help.

PS ~ what area of the country are you in? Maybe someone on this forum can point you in the direction of a real trainer close by.

That guy is NO trainer. And a choke collar???? And then expecting a dog to understand a command it hasn't been taught???? Unbelievable.

That imbecile would've been in the E.R. if he tried that macho-idiot-crap on my dogs.

Though the scenario's a bit different from yours, my Thor (with his first owner) was pulled and snapped on a choke under distractions that were big triggers for him. Whether that's what caused it, didn't cause it, or aided to it, my boy does not respond well to neck pressure, especially corrections on a prong. I use a flat collar and got results with continuous training.

Tread lightly with the prong-------anyone should, not just you, and not just you because of the situation.

Have you used a prong before? Do you know where it's to fit on the neck, the sizing, how to/not to correct, when to/when not to correct, how to put it on/off, etc.?

I'll also suggest Michael Ellis (again) for tips on focusing (there's a ton of free snippets of his on Leerburg) and Susan Garret for focus exercises.

Where are you in regard to foundation/OB work with him? How much time daily is training? Are you consistent and fair? If you live with others, is everyone on the same page in regard to training, consistency, etc.?

Thanks Stacey! Wish I could take the credit but I adjusted the idea from a nose work book I was reading and some good advice from one of the threads here! So all praise belongs to those talented people.

If Demon is traumatized by cars because he associates that area with the bad trainer (or even the car rushing up towards him) I wonder if managing that initial reaction would be a first step? I don't disagree with any advice via the prong (Amazon is great option too if you can't find one local - I think a 3.0 mm would probably be a good size. Just avoid the plastic ones) and H is walked on a prong because he is so much stronger than me. But what if while you're waiting for a prong you start desensitizing him to the cars? If he is feeling anxious on that street/area, he could be going after the cars as a way to release stress. Depending on how the timing of the incident worked out, he could see lashing out at the cars as a way to end what is stressing him.

Building off of what Stacey mentioned earlier about taking him outside and working on his focus, you could use the same approach but focus on desensitizing. A game I used to play with H was "where is?" which you can adjust to suit your needs. Basic idea is I would (within his threshold) point out whatever was his freak out du jour, once he looked at it I would click or mark him and hand him a treat, pulling his focus back onto me. I would keep his focus and then release him. I would point out the thing again and once he saw it, mark it and treat. I would build up length of time he could look at the thing without freaking out, then I would work on distance (starting over time wise, so if he was okay at 15 feet for 5 minutes I would go 10 feet and start over at 1 second, 2 seconds, etc). If he started to freak out I would immediately move him and myself backwards and away from the thing. Lots of praise and happy games when he had attention on me.

You can do the same thing without the requesting attention, just chill out in his threshold distance and treat him for every calm look or reaction when a car passes.

Does he do the same lunging and barking routine on other streets/unknown areas he's never been? In a parking lot? If it's not contextual to just the area you were in when the POS "trainer" (the quotes aren't aimed at your decision to hire him - I've had more than my fair share of POS "trainer"s who I didn't realize were bad until the first and last session) that's a good sign. Also how old is Demon? I forgot to check if you mentioned (I'm sure you did) his age. If he's under 6 months I would hesitate to put a prong on him just due to age. There is a good harness I used in combination with positive training to teach a heel command and when H was 6 months transitioned him to a prong for the extra control when he saw a squirrel or something he wanted to go after.

[quote="Owned-By-Hendrix"You can do the same thing without the requesting attention, just chill out in his threshold distance and treat him for every calm look or reaction when a car passes.[/quote]

Good advice. I used this technique with one of my dogs and people....she's overly friendly. We slowly worked up to where she could keep herself calm and not be a total out-of-her-head nut when saying hello to people. Worked like a charm.

if my dogs had not taken care of that ''trainer'', i would have. i'm still mad about it a day after reading.
my sincerest sympathies to both you and Demon!

given what happened with the trainer and IF you go ahead with the prong [ if absolutely necessary because of your safety in winter conditions ], i would go very slow. i would first put it on in/around house [ i.e., BEFORE you are really going to USE it ] and treat it like a loving gift [ when/as you put it on, give him lots of whatever sort of loving he best responds to ].

and you really need a treat he is going to respond to when you get into the prong thing with him [ assuming as i do that he will associate this with the trainer experience. as everyone said, take it very very slow/ very gently.
have you tried special treats like liver nuggets, lamb lung or even chicken breast jerky cut into pieces? copious treats as he responds appropriately to the slightest prong pressure [ again, if you can practice first in yard? ]

[ thank all the rest of you! all your detail gave me some great training pointers!! -REALLY!
the only reason i am piping in is i am very concerned about the psychology of this situation. the pup already has had his confidence in being protected by his companion shaken. the dangers in now having that person impose a collar experience that he may perceive as similar or the same are rife. so must proceed with extra caution.]

thank you for all the replys! things have been hectic here so i havent had any chance to respond untill now.
i still dont have a big opening here so im sorry if i cant respond to every one of you but things are getting alot easier with demon. our training is constant with the basics like not rushing/jumping twards people he knows untill hes given permission (he used to get so excited he'd pee himself.. all over their shoes) now he sits and watches for me to say he can approach.
the cars/road situation is a slow one and ill have to pick that up at a slightly later date. ive had a problem with collars and harnesses snapping open on walks, so weve mostly just been doing laps of the avenue and play sessions with his buddy koda to tire him out untill that situation is sorted (i found a hunter collar with a stong metal buckle but its just a couple inches too big on him for now ) ive had no luck finding prong collars in the republic of ireland either
i dont have any huge worries with demon or training at the moment and i think we'll be able to manage once the collar situation is sorted.

A fursaver might help if he's able to snap the buckle. H wears his full time since he can escape every other type of collar. Online you could probably find a biothane, leather, or nylon collar with a Cobra buckle the could withstand the amount of pressure put on it, as another option. I just got H one for bitework and it seems instantly strong but easy for humans to take on or off.

People chime in here....

I've always toyed with getting an agitation collar (since it's wide) for Thor when going out and/or working with big triggers...to prevent choking if he goes over-threshold. (As opposed to a leather flat. I'd still have two leads.)

Not to take away from the OP, but...thoughts?

To the OP...so glad progress is being made. Keep up the good work! Nothing replaces good foundation work and patience.

Well the aim of an agitation collar is to diffuse the pressure from pulling against the collar. So for that reason it would hypothetically lessen the load from pulling. It is still possible for a dog to choke himself out on an agitation collar from the sharpness of the edges, so keep that in mind when looking at them. Rounded edges are best. I guess it really depends on how often he ends up choking on a flat collar when out. It would certainly lessen the load on his neck and combined with the training should be a good option. There's fairly cheap but durable ones at elitek9 for around 20$. There's also a harness idea, a leather or biothane agitation one with a backup flat collar.

Someone once showed me how to use a normal leash on a flat collar to eliminate pulling problems... Basically, you wrap the lead around the chest in a way that provides a very basic slipknot-type action. As soon as the dog begins to pull, pressure is applied to the chest. I tried this a few times with Hilde when she was very young and excitable, and she IMMEDIATELY ceased pulling. It didn't seem to cause pain and she never got above a very mild pull force. She also never turned to give me any "WTF?" look. She just quickly "got it" and continued about her business of examining the world.

The other day I saw a commercial from the company that makes the "ThunderShirt" showing what they call the "ThunderLeash" which is pretty much the same concept:
http://www.thundershirt.com/Product/ThunderLeash.aspx
I'm not sure it's worth buying an actual product for this, but it is probably safer to ensure the lead doesn't slide down over the abdomen where it could cause injury.

wow, what a neat leash idea, I am going to try it with Sadie. there are clasps at the hardware store that kind of look like that.

This would basically amount to a harness, yes?

Raven wrote:This would basically amount to a harness, yes?

Yes. Except that when the dog pulls, the leash is going to tighten (like a choke, martingale, pinch, etc) causing undesirable pressure on the chest.

Thanks, Stacy. I knew I was missing something....

Chalk it up to not enough sleep or not enough coffee (or both) when you first saw it.

Harper is 5 months old. She knows all her commands, in particular, leave it. I can put yummies on her paws on a down stay and she will leave it. This works inside, outside and in public UNLESS a car goes by, a bicycle or a jogger. She totally loses it. I have worked on redirecting her, walking in the opposite direction, etc. she is starting to sorta turn her head toward the treat but the chase drive is so strong she doesn't really care about anything else. Will she grow out of this?? Any ideas?? This is also true for cats. I have 2 that have left home and come in only to eat when they know Harper is asleep.

Counter conditioning will be required. They will not grow out of this, and it's not something you can do without professional help. I know this from experience.