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ladyjubilee
Training Dog
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: Sharing life with Bramble Dutch Shepherd mix (?) and Casper Whippet/Pit Bull (????) mix

Lines

Post by ladyjubilee »

So I'm curious about lines and why DS would be bred the way they are. I watched on video dog of a dog that was supposedly an imported quality line....but was so aggressive even with the very experienced owner the dog had to be muzzled. And apparently this is why the dog was chosen. (By aggressive I meant will purposefully and determinedly bite without provocation.) What kind of life is that for a dog.

Yet dogs in the Netherlands are bred to be service dogs. Don't get me wrong, I know that doesn't mean low drive, but rather can mean a focusing of the drive.

So why is it in the US the aim seems to be dogs more the former and not the later? I have even seen where DS breeders who focus on pets are described as not having "good" dogs.

Why aren't they being bred for service work, and therapy work in the US when they are perfectly elsewhere elsewhere? Or even actual herding? Or as great pets?
Pack: Peanuts-terrier mix, 16-18 years old, Bramble-Dutch Shepherd, 3 yrs
Location: NC

Tim91118
Training Dog
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:34 am
Tell us about yourself: Enjoying my Dutch Shepherd female named Anja

Re: Lines

Post by Tim91118 »

Everyone has a reason for breeding a dog and there are many reasons, but they don’t change from country to country. There is a demand for law enforcement dogs and also sport dogs. Good breeders know what two dogs to put together to get those. So the primary reason for breeding two Dutch Shepherd’s is to get one of the two. There are other breeders breeding other dogs to get a variety of types for a variety of tasks including service dogs and pets.
Tim

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centrop67
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2836
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: Lines

Post by centrop67 »

In the forum's "How to select/research a breeder" post, the top question is "Why did you choose to mate these two dogs?"

The answer is important. Like Tim said breeders have specific reasons, so they will mate pairs they expect to produce the results they are looking for.

In the US, Dutch Shepherds are almost always bred for police and military - Probably, because the service dog industry here is flooded with more accessible labs, goldens, and GSDs.

There used to be a show about one of the K9 trainers - the name escapes me right now. I remember one of the last episodes before it disappeared was them finding a breeder of DS's in Mexico. They were really excited about lowering the costs of bringing DS's and Mals from Europe. And, especially excited about having more DS's.

The bottom line is that the perception is that Dutch Shepherds are really, really good at police and military applications, and that is going to be a strong motivator to why breeders breed them here.

BTW - I do have some information about a couple of breeders in the US that are really breeding strictly for $$$. Most of that is hearsay, so I will not call them out publicly.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

TimL_168
Working Dog
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am: a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. We added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
Location: central MD

Re: Lines

Post by TimL_168 »

Michael hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of gentler breed dogs that are perfectly well suited to the jobs of service or therapy. While herding dogs can be trained to do this job, they are, just plain and simple, different creatures. Herding dogs are required to put pressure on animals much larger than they are. That can include teeth.
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor

TimL_168
Working Dog
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am: a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. We added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
Location: central MD

Re: Lines

Post by TimL_168 »

Also, while I am definitely no expert, and have no experience in the realm, I'd venture to reason that there are a lot more dogs with a lot more diversity in Europe. Softer dogs in a litter are probably selected for service work while dogs that are more willing to use their mouths to get what they want are selected for law enforcement... or, possibly, actual herding
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor

TimL_168
Working Dog
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am: a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. We added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
Location: central MD

Re: Lines

Post by TimL_168 »

Lastly, what you described is a very neurotic, nervy dog. I'm not aware of any professional and respected breeders over here that are PURPOSEFULLY breeding hysterical dogs that can't calm the F Down. Those dogs exist, for sure! But, they should be bred out of the stock. I'm sure there are lots of BYB that are not concerning themselves with the mental picture of their dogs as they reach maturity.

All that said, remember: all shepherding dogs must have been bred to show force and use teeth at some point
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor

Mark77
Training Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:19 am
Tell us about yourself: Own two Dutchies and a Mal.

Re: Lines

Post by Mark77 »

An excellent article to understand about breeding genetics.

https://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/our-breeding-program

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SEL
Training Dog
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:17 pm
Tell us about yourself: I live in Arizona and have an 8 year old female DS and 2 to 3 year old male DS mix

Re: Lines

Post by SEL »

I think the quality breeders here in the US are not breeding dogs that are aggressive. I saw a similar video probably about a year ago (which I'm sure I couldn't find again) where this guy had taken this aggressive DS from someone who couldn't handle it and then was boasting about how only he could and the dog had even bitten him at first. He said he was going to breed the dog with a less aggressive dog and I'm thinking "what the F?" You don't take a dog with a temperament like that and breed it because what if the offspring pick up the aggression traits? Who would even want to own a dog like that? It's a big liability. For some idiots breeding these dogs I think it's an ego thing, they think they are tough and it's cool to breed tough aggressive dogs. But even the police department doesn't take outwardly aggressive dogs. The dogs that are selected are confident and social, they are not scared of people and not looking to bite any person in their line of sight. A dog that is too aggressive would either not be selected or even if it was, it would fail out of the program.
Idna (8 yrs) & Laszlo (2-3 yrs) in AZ

ladyjubilee
Training Dog
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: Sharing life with Bramble Dutch Shepherd mix (?) and Casper Whippet/Pit Bull (????) mix

Re: Lines

Post by ladyjubilee »

That is what I wondered. I doesn't seem like offspring would necessarily be a "blend" of parent personality traits, but could just as likely reflect the traits of either parent.


But then, I'm not knowledgeable about breeding overall.
Pack: Peanuts-terrier mix, 16-18 years old, Bramble-Dutch Shepherd, 3 yrs
Location: NC

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

TimL_168 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:34 pm
just plain and simple, different creatures. Herding dogs are required to put pressure on animals much larger than they are. That can include teeth.
I know about the teeth. Caught one in my face yesterday.
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

ladyjubilee
Training Dog
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: Sharing life with Bramble Dutch Shepherd mix (?) and Casper Whippet/Pit Bull (????) mix

Re: Lines

Post by ladyjubilee »

Oh no....are you ok?
Pack: Peanuts-terrier mix, 16-18 years old, Bramble-Dutch Shepherd, 3 yrs
Location: NC

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

Yes. But there is a slight puncture near my lower lip. Battle scars
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

Image
Rough play. Rouge swung her head into mine. Not the first and won’t be the last time. Every scar has a story to tell.
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

I was afraid she had tore into my lip but it was more like a graze. Their skulls are so solid. That hurt worse than the nip.
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

ladyjubilee
Training Dog
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: Sharing life with Bramble Dutch Shepherd mix (?) and Casper Whippet/Pit Bull (????) mix

Re: Lines

Post by ladyjubilee »

Bramble gets carried away sometimes too and will fling her head back when she snuggles.
Pack: Peanuts-terrier mix, 16-18 years old, Bramble-Dutch Shepherd, 3 yrs
Location: NC

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

That’s so painful
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

Mark77
Training Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:19 am
Tell us about yourself: Own two Dutchies and a Mal.

Re: Lines

Post by Mark77 »

SEL wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:47 pm
I think the quality breeders here in the US are not breeding dogs that are aggressive. I saw a similar video probably about a year ago (which I'm sure I couldn't find again) where this guy had taken this aggressive DS from someone who couldn't handle it and then was boasting about how only he could and the dog had even bitten him at first. He said he was going to breed the dog with a less aggressive dog and I'm thinking "what the F?" You don't take a dog with a temperament like that and breed it because what if the offspring pick up the aggression traits? Who would even want to own a dog like that? It's a big liability. For some idiots breeding these dogs I think it's an ego thing, they think they are tough and it's cool to breed tough aggressive dogs. But even the police department doesn't take outwardly aggressive dogs. The dogs that are selected are confident and social, they are not scared of people and not looking to bite any person in their line of sight. A dog that is too aggressive would either not be selected or even if it was, it would fail out of the program.

That's why they chose my dog's mother specifically for that breeding because the male was a more aggressive dog than what they wanted for that line. Now she was a daughter to a KNPV Ph 2 dog but was lower key. So it's a good balance to bring the line back toward a manageable center.

Joxgirl
Working Dog
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Loving every crazy day with my DS in CA and UT.
Location: Southern California

Re: Lines

Post by Joxgirl »

I think about breeding with my girl. She is very gentle in the scheme of things.
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd) 2 years old
Joachimstaler @ IG

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Laplaiefier
Puppy
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Tell us about yourself: Dogs are a good reflection of their owners?
LOL I must be hardheaded and stubborn.
I guess before and after results with dogs tend to show the effort put into them.
Location: California, USA

Re: Lines

Post by Laplaiefier »

Joxgirl wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:31 am
Yes. But there is a slight puncture near my lower lip. Battle scars
Cool.
I'll see that lower lip with a matching upper lip and raise to one over the eye and numerous arm dents. :lol:
The worst was a clutzy full speed ankle collision that gave birth to a mouse size blood clot. What we won't do for fun.

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