Marker\Clicker Training

General issues of training/education
Post Reply
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

I'm thinking about learning marker training for my next puppy. It will most likely be a DS. I'm wonder if this type of training can be used successfully in bite training. Any thoughts on this matter will greatly be appreciated.
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Christie M »

Marker training is useful for accurate communication regardless of what kind of training you are looking into. We use it for starting all new behaviors and use it almost exclusively for all of our detection dogs. In bite work, we use it to mark appropriate behaviors before any reward is presented (ie - dog gives me eye contact, so I mark the behavior and then release them to the bite). A marker doesn't have to be a clicker. On the field I tend to use "Yes."

I'm not sure where you are located, but I believe Dave Collier (spelling?) in TX uses it in bite work quite a bit and gives seminars. You can check with Darryl & Tammy Richey at TriCounty K9 (www.tricountyk9.com) about it. They have hosted seminars in the past and are both very accomplished trainers.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Christie M »

HARNW76 wrote:Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.
I have heard and seen nothing but greatness from Michael Ellis. You couldn't have a better opportunity!
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
User avatar
Manstrom
Puppy
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:41 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 23 year old military member who just got my first Dutch shepherd. I've grown up my whole life with various breeds and trained Rhodesian ridgebacks for several years prior to joining the service.
Location: Valdosta Georgia

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Manstrom »

I'm forgetful so I used to forget my clicker in the house all the time when I trained my ridgebacks so I just use a loud tongue click instead. Has the same effect and I've yet to find a way to forget my tongue anywhere haha
"A German Shepherd does what you tell it to, a Malinois does it before you tell it, a Dutch Shepherd does it before you think it"
-Harvey, DS puppy
-Paul, gsd/lab/? Mix
-RIP Chance, 12 year old rhodesian ridgeback
User avatar
Geremy
Puppy
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:10 am
Tell us about yourself: greets from germany!
my name ist stephanie and we have 2 dutchies.
boyd´s bullriding geremy - he is now 5 years and trained in mondioring, SAR and K9
and there is his halfbrother boyd´s bullriding I.Q. he is trained in KNPV and mondioring.
Location: Bavaria/Germany/Europe
Contact:

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Geremy »

we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Christie M wrote:
HARNW76 wrote:Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.
I have heard and seen nothing but greatness from Michael Ellis. You couldn't have a better opportunity!
Thanks for your insight Christie. I'll take your advice and run with it. (as best I can). : )
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y
That's encouraging to know. Thank you Steph. This is new training for me. I watched your video and learned something new already. I will watch more of them. Thank you for your help.
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
User avatar
Choochi
Training Dog
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:16 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love dogs and training.
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Choochi »

Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

One caviat about using a varied amount of treats as a reinforcement....

A find a lot of people swear by a variable reward schedule (what Bart is talking about in that vid, the dog knows a reward is coming but doesn't know how much). I see lots of protection sport people hammer that concept into new comers, the dog must never know when to expect the reward, it must always be variable as that creates a much stronger behaviour. Well, yes and no with a side of caution.

A variable schedule does indeed strengthen and create a stronger more reliable behaviour. The problem however lies in using a variable schedule while the dog is still in a learning phase of the behaviour. In marker training we break down behaviours into little fragments which start off rough, are polished, and eventually put together to create a final set of small short behaviours that for example make up heeling. What we teach the dog in the beginning stages, and what those behaviours look like at first, is a much rougher version with some mistakes and some room for error and lack of precision until the behaviour through time and repetition is refined and those errors are eliminated. The problem with using variable reinforcement while at that learning stage is that along with the good snippets of behaviour you in fact strengthen all those mistakes as well. It then takes longer to undo or eliminate them as they have inadvertently been strongly reinforced already. It takes a lot more to extinguish them and some times even still they creep up later on as a default behaviour as it was a part of the foundation work.

So if you plan to use variable reinforcement, be sure that you're using it at a time when the dog is already performing the desired behaviour nearly flawlessly.

(This snippet of invaluable information is a gem I got from Bob Bailey :))
Choochi
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Choochi wrote:
Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

One caviat about using a varied amount of treats as a reinforcement....

A find a lot of people swear by a variable reward schedule (what Bart is talking about in that vid, the dog knows a reward is coming but doesn't know how much). I see lots of protection sport people hammer that concept into new comers, the dog must never know when to expect the reward, it must always be variable as that creates a much stronger behaviour. Well, yes and no with a side of caution.

A variable schedule does indeed strengthen and create a stronger more reliable behaviour. The problem however lies in using a variable schedule while the dog is still in a learning phase of the behaviour. In marker training we break down behaviours into little fragments which start off rough, are polished, and eventually put together to create a final set of small short behaviours that for example make up heeling. What we teach the dog in the beginning stages, and what those behaviours look like at first, is a much rougher version with some mistakes and some room for error and lack of precision until the behaviour through time and repetition is refined and those errors are eliminated. The problem with using variable reinforcement while at that learning stage is that along with the good snippets of behaviour you in fact strengthen all those mistakes as well. It then takes longer to undo or eliminate them as they have inadvertently been strongly reinforced already. It takes a lot more to extinguish them and some times even still they creep up later on as a default behaviour as it was a part of the foundation work.

So if you plan to use variable reinforcement, be sure that you're using it at a time when the dog is already performing the desired behaviour nearly flawlessly.

(This snippet of invaluable information is a gem I got from Bob Bailey :))
Just to be clear. When laying the foundation work with my puppy it's good to vary the amount of the reward but not the timing. That's for later. Yes? I have another question...... When first starting out with this type of training with your puppy, do you introduce the concept to the dog that he will get a reward after each time I say "yes" buy doing that over and over again regardless of what he may be doing at the time. (Of course not being bad is some way) For instance, he could laying of the floor in the middle of the room or laying in my lap for that matter. In other words, in the very beginning do I start teaching him that "yes" will bring him a reward even when he's not doing anything at all.
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Christie M »

HARNW76 wrote: In other words, in the very beginning do I start teaching him that "yes" will bring him a reward even when he's not doing anything at all.
I think you'll find your DS puppy to be very smart and will pair it quite quickly. I start the pairing with a watch command and don't "load" the CR/YES/clicker first. They catch on in the first session or two and begin to understand that whatever they were doing when they heard that noise is something to be repeated.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Christie,
I've heard the term "load" before when talking about marker training. Can you explain more fully what you meant by saying you "don't load the CR/YES first."
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
User avatar
Choochi
Training Dog
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:16 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love dogs and training.
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by Choochi »

Loading or charging refers to when you initially establish the connection to the dog that a marker signal (be it a clicker, a word, a whistle, a sound you make) means a primary reinforcer ie food is coming. What that might mean in case of clicker training is that before you start using the clicker during training, you would do a couple sessions of just click-treat, click-treat, click-treat.

You could start off that way, but with an intelligent dog you will find they catch on super quick, as in within as little as 1 or 2 clicks. There is no need to do a formal charge, it is boring to the dog, and is almost a waste of time. You can pretty much just get right into it and they pick up that the signal they are hearing is of importance and what it means really quickly.

You can start with some thing as easy as perch work (getting a dog to stand on a platform). Dog looks at the platform or walks toward it, click-treat. Dog looks at it again, ct, dog moves toward it, ct, dog touches it, ct... etc No need to sit there for 5 minutes prior to starting and just do ct, ct, ct, ct...
Choochi
HARNW76
Puppy
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 am
Tell us about yourself: I'm a 55 year old CNC programmer living in the USA. I've owned 4 GSD, but I'm considering a Dutch Shephard for my next. I'm looking to gain as much information about the breed as I can before making my decision.

Re: Marker\Clicker Training

Post by HARNW76 »

Choochi wrote:Loading or charging refers to when you initially establish the connection to the dog that a marker signal (be it a clicker, a word, a whistle, a sound you make) means a primary reinforcer ie food is coming. What that might mean in case of clicker training is that before you start using the clicker during training, you would do a couple sessions of just click-treat, click-treat, click-treat.

You could start off that way, but with an intelligent dog you will find they catch on super quick, as in within as little as 1 or 2 clicks. There is no need to do a formal charge, it is boring to the dog, and is almost a waste of time. You can pretty much just get right into it and they pick up that the signal they are hearing is of importance and what it means really quickly.

You can start with some thing as easy as perch work (getting a dog to stand on a platform). Dog looks at the platform or walks toward it, click-treat. Dog looks at it again, ct, dog moves toward it, ct, dog touches it, ct... etc No need to sit there for 5 minutes prior to starting and just do ct, ct, ct, ct...
Choochi,
When I first heard a trainer use the term "loading" he gave no explanation of the word.
Your explanation fits perfectly within the context of how the trainer used the word.
Thank you so much.
Also, my wife and I have recently adopted a rescue dog. I don't know how this dog behaved as a puppy but right now she is very very timid. (abuse can do that, a sad story) Anyway I'm thinking marker training might be a way to reach her. It will also give me a chance to put into practice what I learn about marker training before I get my DS. Sooooo when is our next lesson? And do I need to have Bonny with me along with a bag full of treats or am I fine just by myself? :D
Thanks,
Harold Eaker
Outside St.Louis, Mo. USA
Post Reply