All Black Litter

tedge007 · Post by **tedge007** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:43 am

Question for all the breeders out there...Is there such a thing as an all black DS Litter? I am curious if it is chemically possible to attempt a breeding that would result in an all black pups? I know with Dobermans breeders can arrange an all Black breeding or they can breed a certain way for a rainbow litter. Would like to know if the same could be done with DSD's. My initial thought was Impossible since I have seen breedings done with 2 all black dogs that produced mainly brindle pups. However a few people told me they heard that there are some all black litters.

CaroleBoaz · Post by **CaroleBoaz** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:57 pm

This might help.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/ge ... rindle.htm

tedge007 · Post by **tedge007** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:16 pm

thankls for the link...alot of info to take in there but i think i have my answer..

CaroleBoaz · Post by **CaroleBoaz** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:27 pm

I think the first couple of sentences are the most important. Black being dominant. Makes it look like 2 brindles cannot make a black.

I'd be interested in hearing if any breeders ever got a black. But I have not yet seen any.

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:05 pm

blackpuppy wrote:I'd be interested in hearing if any breeders ever got a black. But I have not yet seen any.

If you study the link Blackpuppy posted again you will understand that two brindle dogs can never produce solid black (if they carry black, they ARE black, not brindle). But here's a funny one, if it was possible, how will you see that that black dog is a "Dutch Shepherd" and not a mali??

Jan · Post by **Jan** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:31 pm

By there wooden shoes perhaps?

Schlussdibusti · Post by **Schlussdibusti** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:40 pm

Jannumbernext wrote:By there wooden shoes perhaps?

CaroleBoaz · Post by **CaroleBoaz** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:19 pm

Funny!

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:25 pm

whaha, I have that one cut out too

(it's a daily comic in Dutch newspaper)

kchristy · Post by **kchristy** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:03 pm

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:13 pm

Marjolein wrote:If you study the link Blackpuppy posted again you will understand that two brindle dogs can never produce solid black (if they carry black, they ARE black, not brindle). But here's a funny one, if it was possible, how will you see that that black dog is a "Dutch Shepherd" and not a mali??

Let me confuse you Marjolein. Two brindles *could* produce a black, if it were a recessive black (aa) and not a dominant black (Kb) BUT: The rest of the list can disregard that remark, since there is no recessive black known in Dutch Shepherds. The solid black dogs in the KNPV genepool come from a Groenendaeler (=Belgian sheepdog) named Andor van de ijsselvloed, a KNPV champion from the 1970's. He went on to produce a good many 'black malinois' (Kb dominant black, that is) and some of those have been mislabelled as 'black dutch shepherds'. But genetically, DS's are either brindle -which cannot hide dominant black- or a recessive fawn (an oops color in the breed)

Marjolein · Post by **Marjolein** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:05 am

I knew that

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:52 pm

CaroleBoaz · Post by **CaroleBoaz** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:56 pm

Good discussion!

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:49 pm

I have learned a lot through this discussion..... Now I am wondering why the breeder I got my pup from had a black male in another litter.... different bitch, but still. :dsangry:

Post by **Dutchringgirl** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:10 am

But genetically, DS's are either brindle -which cannot hide dominant black- or a recessive fawn (an oops color in the breed)

So a fawn DS is an oops?

vneerland · Post by **vneerland** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:46 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:
But genetically, DS's are either brindle -which cannot hide dominant black- or a recessive fawn (an oops color in the breed)
So a fawn DS is an oops?

Yes, the color should be (any shade of) brindle.
Fawn can happen, even in the FCI population, especially the very small genepool of the longhair has had some. In the FCI short hair, fawn did not occur a whole lot anymore, but made a slight come back due to the (illegal) crossing on KNPV Dutch Shepherds. Fawn also ocurred in the rough coateds, but rarely.
The majority of fawn in the short hair must be blamed on the KNVP breeding stock. The majority of the DS's on this continent are of KNPV background so fawn is not uncommon at this side of the pond.

GSDNanny · Post by **GSDNanny** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:45 pm

Judith, again, I am sure I can speak for others here. I am so appreciative of your willingness to educate us properly on the DS genetics. I find it fascinating. Thanx!!

Post by **Dutchringgirl** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:10 pm

Yes, interesting and much appreciated Judith !!

I knew one Ring Champion Fawn DS

DutchGirl · Post by **DutchGirl** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:02 pm

So can you have a black dutch shepherd or not?

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