Weaning off of treats??

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Lauren
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Tell us about yourself: I am a wife, mother of 2 kids, 3 cats, 1 Standard Poodle (10 yrs) and Xena, a Dutch Shepherd Puppy.

Weaning off of treats??

Post by Lauren »

My little Xena is EXTREMELY food motivated. She is not all that play motivated. She could care less about a tennis ball or tug. So, I have been training with lots of treats.

She is wonderful IF I have treats on me. I found out yesterday that she does, indeed, have a perfect heel. She sits when I stop. She ignores distractions. She turns with me etc. Also, she learned a pretty good "side" (heel on my right hand side).

The problem is she has a "show me the money" attitude. If I don't have treats, she does not feel the need to perform. Sure, if I control a resource like opening the door, etc, she minds her manners. But there is no "Mom asked me to, so I will!" at all.

I suspect that my alpha status is not up to snuff. She is still very mouthy with me and she has begun jumping up on me as a way of greeting :dsangry: Any tips or ideas??

Thanks, Lauren
Lauren from Western NC
Sugars Mom
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Tell us about yourself: I adopted a Dutch Shepherd mix (without knowing what she was) from the SPCA here in Victoria BC and am now trying to learn everything I can about this breed. My husband and I work from home most of the time so I thought it was time to get a puppy! We have his 2 boys here half the time and we wanted a nice family dog.

Sugar looks like a miniature Dutch Shepherd with floppy ears, and has every ounce of DS traits in her little body!

I hope to learn from other DS owners and share doggy experiences.
Location: Victoria BC

Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Sugars Mom »

With the jumping on you to greet problem, when you greet, ignore her until she is calm. Don't look or talk to her, and if she jumps up, you can turn away from her but only give her the attention when she is calm. They are smart dogs and will get it pretty quickly.

The other thing, I'll let someone else answer.
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leih merigian
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by leih merigian »

When you're teaching a new behavior, then you use a very high rate of reinforcement...like every time. The higher you rate of reinforcement, the quicker it tends to go.

Once they learn the behavior, you start to vary the reinforcement schedule...so, not every sit, but for the straightest, quickest, whatever-ist sit, or every just every other sit, for example. As your rewards become more random (you decide whether you're rewarding a specific thing, like a straight sit, or just randomly, the 3rd, then 1st, then 4th, etc, sit), the dog will work harder because she never knows when the reward is coming.

Also, I ALWAYS have treats on me, and my dog knows this. This is a separate thing from when we're having a training session, during which I wear a treat apron or vest. I can reach into my pocket at any time and produce a nice piece of dehydrated lamb lung (very high value, and not oily, so no stains on clothes<g>), so the fact that I alway have them becomes irrelevant. It's just a given. Doesn't mean she gets them, but they're available if I chose to give her one. This helps a lot to make rewarding good behavior very random, as it's not just during certain walks or training sessions, but rather, she may be rewarded at any time.
leih merigian
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Christie M
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Christie M »

I like what Leih said and would just add one thing. The use of a conditioned reinforcer helps a ton too. When it is well conditioned the treats are never "present" or needed for luring, so the dog becomes less dependent on seeing them before providing a behavior.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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Choochi
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Choochi »

Might also be how you present the reward. If you use treats as bribes or lures the dog will depend on them much more and will be harder to wean off then if you use the treats as rewards. Meaning you don't dangle the treat in front of her nose and ask to sit, then she gets the treat. You ask to sit while the cookie is in your pocket and invisible to your dog, when she sits, you verbally mark the timing "yes!" and THEN reach into your pocket and give her the treat. You can also have the treat in your hand, but closed fist, or otherwise away from the dog. This teaches the dog to perform the behaviour for YOU and not the cookie, but still used the cookie as a reward.

And don't give up on her being only food motivated. You can shape a dog with food to become toy motivated.
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Dutchringgirl
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Choochi wrote:
And don't give up on her being only food motivated. You can shape a dog with food to become toy motivated.
I went through this with Sadie. She was NOT toy motivated at all but greatly food motivated. After a while she would do what she was supposed to for a tug or stick.
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Sugars Mom
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Posts: 1734
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 am
Tell us about yourself: I adopted a Dutch Shepherd mix (without knowing what she was) from the SPCA here in Victoria BC and am now trying to learn everything I can about this breed. My husband and I work from home most of the time so I thought it was time to get a puppy! We have his 2 boys here half the time and we wanted a nice family dog.

Sugar looks like a miniature Dutch Shepherd with floppy ears, and has every ounce of DS traits in her little body!

I hope to learn from other DS owners and share doggy experiences.
Location: Victoria BC

Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Sugars Mom »

When Sugar was younger it was all about the food. But as she got older, toys worked too. Squeaky ones were the best!!
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Lauren
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Tell us about yourself: I am a wife, mother of 2 kids, 3 cats, 1 Standard Poodle (10 yrs) and Xena, a Dutch Shepherd Puppy.

Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Lauren »

Thanks, you all. I really appreciate your experience(s)!!

I am trying more intermittent treating. I need to find a good treat that I can keep in my pocket that won't ruin a whole load of clothes if it accidentally goes through the laundry :lol:

I haven't bumped into any dehydrated lamb lung around here... :mrgreen:

Also, it is becoming apparent when she is not yet sure of what I am asking and needs more shaping as opposed to deciding if doing it is worth it. :dsrazz:
Lauren from Western NC
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Choochi
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Choochi »

Watch this vid before it is taken down!!

http://www.brilliantrecalls.com/fe/17921-live-webinar
Choochi
Mark77
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Mark77 »

My dog is training with All About Dogs Cincinnati. The owner John, trains K9's for several police departments in the area and has competed nationally. He doesn't use treats as he says, "you are not a treat dispenser", "you are not your dog's buddy", "you are the alpha, the pack leader". Dogs only understand one thing about the pack leader- messing with the pack leader is very, very bad idea. He said if you can be an absolute hard ass with your dog the first six months of it's life, it will never question what you are asking, it will never question if it should look at you like a leader and for the rest of it's life- it will look to you for guidance.

John uses positive verbal re-enforcement with physical negative re-enforcement. Choke collars and shock collars. He points out, if you give your dog a belly rub- will it suddenly think, wow, my owner is great, I think I'll listen better? No, two seconds later, your dog will be acting like an idiot again or getting into trouble. If you give your dog a piece of steak will it say to itself, maybe I'll try harder to obey commands. No, the dog will simply enjoy the steak then go right back to being a retard again. In the pack world, dogs only get physical negative re-enforcement- nothing positive, yet they love, respect, and adore their leader. The reason is because they have been refined through tens of thousands of years of evolution to do one thing and one thing very well, follow the leader to survive.
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Olie
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Olie »

Mark77 wrote:
John uses positive verbal re-enforcement with physical negative re-enforcement.
Can you explain this please? :oops:
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alexis
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by alexis »

Just on the treats not ruining your laundry front - I've taken to keeping Zane's treats in a ziplock bag. It's easy to grab and put in my pocket (without getting clothes gross) and you're more likely to notice a plastic bag in your pocket than a couple of treats, so you'll take it out before your laundry gets ruined.
alexis & zane in NYC
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Schlussdibusti
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Schlussdibusti »

Olie wrote:
Mark77 wrote:
John uses positive verbal re-enforcement with physical negative re-enforcement.
Can you explain this please? :oops:
this video with Michael Ellis explains the terminology 'positive reinforcement', 'negative reinforcement' etc. very well:
http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_opperantcondit.htm
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Christie M
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by Christie M »

Olie wrote:
Mark77 wrote:
John uses positive verbal re-enforcement with physical negative re-enforcement.
Can you explain this please? :oops:
I assume it means that he praises the dog for appropriate responses, and applies correction when the dog doesn't respond. Depending on how he uses the e-collar, negative re-enforement could be the correct term. It refers to applying a low level of stimulation until the behavior is performed. However, most people use choke chains and e-collars as positive punishment - meaning a correction is applied after the behavior is requested if it is not performed.

Old school training revolves around these principles. The concept of "pack structure" has been disputed over the last decade or more and more modern training techniques are often being applied, even in the police K9 world. I wouldn't presume to say that one is right and the other is wrong. Its about being open minded enough to find what works for the dog. For me, I prefer to "teach" every behavior is a clear, non-stressful way where the dog is eager to learn. Usually, this means the use of food. Once the dog clearly understands what is asked of it, then I am OK applying a consequence for noncompliance. But I do not believe in teaching through correction, stress or discomfort.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
leih merigian
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Re: Weaning off of treats??

Post by leih merigian »

Christie, I"m glad you wrote it that way ;)

I'm afriad my mouth was just itching to go off :whistle:
leih merigian
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Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...
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