allergies

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MyGregorius
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allergies

Post by MyGregorius »

My DS seems to have food an atopy allergy, does anyone know of a natural way to make him scratch less? I don't really like giving him drugs...
He's eating hypoallergenic food, and I watch carefully not to give him any treats that have ingredients that I know he's allergic to.
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centrop67
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Re: allergies

Post by centrop67 »

I had a lab that had severe food allergies. We spent a long time trying to get a diet that kept him from breaking out. His break outs were sores around his eyes, ears, nose, and hips.

Once diagnosed, the vet said he'd probably only make it to 4 or 5 before the problem got so bad we'd have to send him to the rainbow bridge. He lived to be 14 with lots of diligence on out part.
:DSangel:

We used tea-tree oil which provided relief, but I have come to find out that it can be dangerous to dogs. I have seen some posts recommending coconut oil, but that might increase the licking of affected areas, which could also be detrimental.

A raw diet might be a good choice - there's lots of information in a few posts here on the subject. And, I believe we have at least one expert who could chime in to specific questions.

As for the commonality, I have seen a couple of posts about allergies here, but it does not seem to be common among the membership of this forum.
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Re: allergies

Post by johninny »

what is the make-up of the food that makes it hypo-allergenic? i assume it has NO rice, corn, or other grains. is that correct? what are the main ingredients? is it a brand we might know here?
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Re: allergies

Post by simbathedog1 »

We had a golden retriever that used to have terrible skin breakouts and itching from allergies. The vet tested her and she was even allergic to grass! ! We gave her an allergy shot once a week for desensitization. Much better than trying to get out of a bad flare up with frequent prednisone.
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Re: allergies

Post by LyonsFamily »

Odin has habitual scratching and biting at the skin. I was told it was allergies when we first adopted him. At one point, he was biting holes in his fur and making his own hot spots. He spent a good majority of his alone time in a Thundershirt for a while. Now, I know the original cause of his biting was from his back, but since that's is currently being treated, his habitual scratching still existing meant something else was causing it to carry on. I put him on Vitamin D. He gets 1 capsule every 3 days and does not scratch or bite at all anymore. If he goes off of it for more than a week, the biting and scratching comes back like clockwork. It took about a month-6 weeks for it to build up to him being normal again.
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Re: allergies

Post by MyGregorius »

Thank you so much everyone :)
This really helps, of course I'm also working very closely with the the vet, so I'll bring this up with him :)

@johninny - i give him a the "Royal Canin" hypo-allergenic food.
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Re: allergies

Post by johninny »

well, it sounds like Stephanie might be onto something with the Vit D. personally i would try that for a while and see if it works.

regardless of anything else, i would switch foods immediately. royal canin is a terrible quality food. their regular foods are rated 2.5 by dogfoodadvisor; and the hypo-allergenic [ which is not rated because of its vet- ''prescribed'' status ] would get even lower ratings if it was analyzed as other foods are. it seems constructed on the theory that it is impossible to source good quality ingredients that are good for dogs, so we might as well feed them stuff that do them no good and they cannot process well. white potato is by far the major ingredient [ being 2 of the top 3 or 4 ] with soy, corn oil, and salt all being surprisingly prominent. none of these are processed well by dogs' bodies and really do more harm than good. no meat whatsoever and the ONLY animal protein is venison meal.

putting your dog on a higher quality diet may or may not solve the problem [ though i tend to think it will ], but in the long run, a higher quality diet is absolutely essential. given the very high cost of your current food, you have great options that will range in cost from a little more to a lot less. the VERY best - and probably available in only the best dog-supply stores in Israel as in the usa - would be KIWI PEAK which is a dehydrated raw food with great quality ingredients including organ meat. i recommend the combined fish/venison version.

going down in price and quality from there, Orijen and Arcana would be great choices. they had been available in Israel, but their manufacturer, Champion Petfoods, has been in the process of switching distributors there and they have been unavailable in the country for the last year. they are supposed to be re-launched for sale in october! [ check with Champion if problems finding it ]. i think Merrick is not sold there but i may be wrong; if it is sold there, it would be my first choice among these 3 brands. [ KIWI would remain my TOP choice.]

in general:
- buffalo/bison is the best choice for animal protein in commercial dog foods since bison can be counted on to be the most naturally raised of all the available choices. venison is a good second choice, but great in the case of KIWI
- whereas potatoes in moderation are not horrendous, SWEET potatoes are good. so a formulation with sweet potatoes will be much better for your dog. even within one good brand of food, some flavors use sweet and others use white. i.e., merrick's buffalo uses sweet, but some other flavors use regular.
- use grain free foods, and absolutely avoid food and treats with corn, corn by-products, and rice. [ arsenic content in rice can cause huge skin problems. did your prior food have rice in it? ]
- everything else being equal - like within one good brand - canned is much better than dry kibble. [ but the kiwi peak is at least as good as good canned food and may be even better.]
- coconut oil - the one good and unusual ingredient in royal canin - should probably be continued separately after discontinuing royal canin. 1/2 to 1 teaspoon a day [ is that the right amount, Stacy?]

i think a good diet will do away with your dog's allergy issues - at least ones that effect the skin, coat, etc, - and should cure any vit-d deficiency that exists [ though if VIT D is part of the problem, one cannot rule out that your dog simply does not absorb Vit D well and does need supplemental D ]. i really hope you switch to a good diet. if you do switch and you also use a vit d supplement, then after the dog's condition normalizes [ which i assume it will ], i would stop the vit-D to see if the condition returns or not. you DO NOT want to overdose on vit-D. if the condition then deteriorates, then you know there is a specific Vit D issue that will require continuing D supplements.

-
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Re: allergies

Post by Mobil »

I disagree with the sentiment about prescription varieties of Royal Canin/Science Diet/etc. being shitty foods. they are formulated to treat specific health issues and keep pets healthy, and formulated specifically for sick pets, which is why they aren't included in ratings. What is available over the counter is different. Royal Canin prescription food saved my cat's life and prevented expensive surgery when other, more natural ways/supplements and different foods could not.

Prescription foods are medicines and treatment. Both our vet and one of my BFFs who is a vet have told me they wouldn't recommend or use Hills or Purina or Royal Canin's otc , grocery store type foods. But they both carry the prescription foods because they are effective, and pets who need them stay healthy eating them.

I just think caution should be exercised when advising someone to discontinue a specific medical treatment for their pets.
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Re: allergies

Post by Raven »

Just a couple things about coconut oil and tea tree.

Tea tree oil is very drying, which will make some things worse, especially with repeated application.

Thor recently had some crazy scratching/biting going on. While he gets fed a tablespoon of coconut oil every day, I did rub coconut oil on him to keep his skin (and the areas that were beginning to scab) from drying out. Indeed, they want to lick it, but I am fortunate in that when I tell Thor to leave it alone, he does. Once the redness went away and he had only a couple spots that still bothered him, I broke down and put some cortisone cream on them to speed everything up. Only had to apply it a few times at that point. But this was just an out-of-the-blue reaction to something unknown. Not a type of reaction/allergy that requires vet intervention, change in diet, avoid/limit exposure to something, etc.
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Re: allergies

Post by Stacy_R »

Mobil wrote:I disagree with the sentiment about prescription varieties of Royal Canin/Science Diet/etc. being shitty foods. they are formulated to treat specific health issues and keep pets healthy, and formulated specifically for sick pets, which is why they aren't included in ratings. What is available over the counter is different. Royal Canin prescription food saved my cat's life and prevented expensive surgery when other, more natural ways/supplements and different foods could not. I just think caution should be exercised when advising someone to discontinue a specific medical treatment for their pets.
John is right on the mark. Royal Canin is a terrible quality food...prescription or otherwise. No offense to your vet or your BFF, but vets are wooed by dog food companies just like doctors are wooed by drug companies. I love my vet...she's awesome, but even she has those crappy prescription foods. And most vets aren't really taught nutrition in vet school because (once again) of the hold the dog food companies have on the industry. It just is what it is.

Let's unpack the Royal Canin Anallergenic Dry formula:

#1. The first ingredient is cornstarch. Corn in any form is just a filler and is often times an allergen. Corn is also typically genetically modified. If your dog has allergies, corn in any form is the last thing you should be feeding them.

#2. The next ingredient is feather meal...feather meal (basically broken down feathers to make them digestible). Feathers have ZERO PERCENT bioavailability. The hydrolyzing makes the feathers digestible, but it doesn't make them available to your dog for use at the cellular level. The hydrolyzing process also damages many of the amino acids and renders those that aren't damaged useless because amino acids work together.

In an interview with Forbes Magazine, Keith Levy actually said this: "We’re not focused on ingredients, but on outcomes for pets. We can deliver great protein with soy, or with other ingredients." :eek: Um, ingredients are ridiculously important for good health...human, canine, feline, equine.... And corn and soy are 2 of the top allergens. <face palm> :pint:

It's obvious that Mr Levy cares more about his pocket book that the health of dogs, because he states in the same Forbes article that " Few brands are more expensive than us. This also applies in comparison to other vet brands."

As an aside to MyGregorious: Chicken is also often times an allergen. I would switch brands immediately and switch to something without chicken. Orijen has a great six-fish food that you can try: http://www.orijen.ca/products/dog-food/ ... -fish-dog/
Also...are you adding fish oil and vitamin e (making sure that the e you give is d-alpha as opposed to the synthetic dl-alpha) to your dog's diet? These are both very important for overall health, but skin health for sure. The anti-inflammatory properties are excellent for the irritation that comes from allergies.

Coconut oil is a great medium-chain fatty acid and can be used internally and externally. You can give it with meals (John - you are right I would recommend 1/2 to 1 tsp per day to start...some dogs can have an unpleasant reaction to the lauric acid in it causing loose stools. I speak from experience. ;) ).

Sharon is spot on about tea tree oil...it can make things worse.

Stephanie also makes a great point about vitamin d. Just do your homework on both e and d as they are both fat soluble vitamins.

My advice would be to do things in stages. You don't want to switch everything, because then you won't know what worked.
Switch foods first...something high quality and without chicken.
Give it some time and then you can start changing other things.
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Re: allergies

Post by Mobil »

I dislike the "wooed by pet food companies" argument, because it implies that vets are motivated by profit rather than the health of their clients. And also because I know from my friend and also my daughter who is a vet tech that there isn't a big profit margin on prescription foods. And I also know that many vets will discount prescription foods for clients who suffer from financial hardship.

The ingredients may not be optimal for an animal in perfect health, but again, they are for health problems. Just like there are medications and diets for humans with particular health problems that would not be optimal for someone in good health but are necessary to treat a disorder.
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Re: allergies

Post by Stacy_R »

I just realized that I may have looked at the wrong food (apologies). That being said, the "hypoallergenic" formula rates just as low as the "anallergenic" and I would recommend switching. There is actually no meat content in it at all and in the guaranteed analysis, the crude protein is only 19%. The first ingredient is rice, which is generally a better grain, but is still just a filler. The protein they are touting is soy...again...one of the top allergens. Not only is it very commonly associated with allergies and the development of them, but they have hydrolyzed it to make it digestible...see above...and it is a low quality protein as compared to meat. Beet pulp *can* also cause allergies. If it were lower on the list of ingredients, I wouldn't be too concerned but it's #5.
Mobil wrote:I dislike the "wooed by pet food companies" argument, because it implies that vets are motivated by profit rather than the health of their clients.
Mobil: You misread me. I wasn't implying "wooed" as strictly in the financial sense. Here's the deal: nutrition is an elective class and is oftentimes taught by dog food representatives from companies like Hills, Iams, and Purina who give the vet students samples to give to their own dogs thereby increasing the odds that when said students get their own practices they will use/recommend that specific food.

Mobil wrote:The ingredients may not be optimal for an animal in perfect health
Consider this: If the ingredients aren't optimal for a dog in perfect health (who needs maybe less perfect ingredients at every turn), then how can they possibly be optimal for a dog with an immunocomprimised system?
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Re: allergies

Post by LyonsFamily »

I'll start out preferencing this for those that don't know. I feed a homemade raw diet to my own dogs. I'm not for prescription diets for the average dog.

The thing with prescription foods is that the big companies are the only ones PAYING for the testing and research for specific problems. I love Orijen and Acana, but Champion doesn't test the food out on critical patients and they don't spend the time educating vets about what problems can be solved from their food. Hills reps are in my clinic at least every other week and they talk science and medical terms with the staff, something that vets and techs are looking for. We carry a prescription diet by Hills now that is grain free and would probably rank a 4 or 5 on dog food advisor. Their OTC grain-free is currently ranked a 3 right now.

The quality of certain ingredients in prescription food isn't great, but the foods have certain aspects that are proven to work with certain problems. If you have a pet dying from something like diabetes or Addison's Disease, putting them on a prescription diet could save their life immediately. There isn't a ton of time to experiment with a homemade diet or a better brand of food. Sure, the dog could develop something like cancer or peridontal disease, but when you're looking at your dog dying a week from now from a disease or developing cancer in 2-3 years, the prescription food makes sense. Why would a vet recommend something that hasn't been proven or researched for years by independent testing agencies? I have vets at work that feed raw or Orijen, but they still recommend prescription diets because they're looking to stabilize as quickly as possible and honestly many clients don't follow up outside of the clinic with recommendations. It's much better to sell them the food when they're in the clinic than gamble on the chance that they might go to a pet store and get something recommended. I see it all the time with brushes. Nobody will go to the store to get the brush I recommend for grooming, or they'll pick the wrong brush or the cheaper brush or the one in pink, but if we carry them up front and I physically hand the brush to the client, they'll buy it.

For those of you suggesting that vets make money off of food (mark up is only 20-30% by the way), when you go to a pet store to purchase your high quality food, the staff there "educating" you is out to make a profit too. Stella and Chewys and Bravo provide free freezers and free food for employee pets for stores that carry their products and even more for those that meet certain sales goals. Champion foods provides free shelving if the store agrees to carry their products for a year and only put their products on the shelves, even when supply is down and the store can't get inventory. Fromm gives pet store employees free food too. Since when is a for-profit company making money a bad thing?

Now that being said, any food prescribed for allergies can be changed rather easily as long as you know the triggers and what to look for. Something like itching isn't life threatening and I feel more comfortable with somebody experimenting to find the problem since the benefits and risks far outweigh the problems that could arise from a lifetime of feed sub-par food. I prefer Natural Balance (if you're looking for kibble) for allergy sufferers because they have 1 protein 1 carb source formulas, so it is very easy to test through an elimination diet.
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Re: allergies

Post by Stacy_R »

LyonsFamily wrote:For those of you suggesting that vets make money off of food (mark up is only 20-30% by the way)
Unless I missed something, I don't think anyone is saying that.
LyonsFamily wrote: Since when is a for-profit company making money a bad thing?
I don't think anyone is saying that it's not a good thing.
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
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Re: allergies

Post by johninny »

MyGregorius: 3 questions: what food did you use prior to the royal canin?
2]when did you switch to the royal canin?
3] having stated you do not give treats with ingredients you know your dog is allergic to, HOW do you know what he is allergic to - i.e., specifically tested, process of elimination, or supposition by vet?
and a 4th to satisfy my curiosity and simplify discussion: Which RC hypoallergenic food are you using?
[ apparently RC has 2 different versions - both ''hypo'' - which is the source of ingredients discrepancy between me and Stacy. hydrolyzed protein or selected protein? ]

Stephanie: completely agree that certain exigent circumstances require one to do whatever is necessary to benefit the patient and so specific formulations of food have their place. but neither Stacy nor i talked of profit motive one way or another. nevertheless, a typical vet is no more familiar with nutrition and/or dog food qualities than is your typical medical GP in the human community, and as a result is prone to being led by company reps. my current general vet - the first i have ever loved - uses RC products and has only the best interests of her patients in mind. with all of that in mind, allergies - which may or may not be a correct diagnosis in this case! - are not usually an exigent situation. in the case of these specific RC hypoallergenic products, i am hard-pressed to see how taking away all proper nutrition and substituting allergens, ingredients that dogs do not process well, tons of sugars, and, in general, ingredients that are shown to CAUSE skin and gastrointestinal problems in dogs can possibly be viewed as acceptable treatment for allergies.

Stacy: there are 2 prescription ''hypo'' products, one with 1st ingredient dried potatoes, the other that you found with BREWERS rice as its 1st ingredient. i was already horrified but i think the one you found is even worse. both seem DESIGNED to create skin problems and both , if kept as primary diet for a long time, would probably also lead to kidney failure although i think the one you were looking at would get there more quickly given the FSO sugars in it. both are just loaded with sugars.

Dusty: your cat notwithstanding [ i am quite sure your cat was not dying of allergies and had its life saved by RC hypoallergenic food] and other prescription foods notwithstanding, THIS food is not a medicine, it is not a treatment, and it is certainly not healing. please look at the ingredients and tell me what is medicinal, beneficial or healing about this. whatever anyone's opinion, THE INITIAL POST MAKES CLEAR THAT THE PROBLEM REMAINS! so the fact is the current ''treatment'' is NOT WORKING. and i fear that THIS PARTICULAR FOOD WILL CAUSE, NOT AMELIORATE, SKIN PROBLEMS.

allergies! --- i have had 6 DS and every one of them arrived with skin problems of varying degrees, usually hot spots whether intermittent or constant. in EVERY case with vets great [ my current WONDERFUL vet ] or not so great or really bad, i was immediately told by the vet that it was allergies. in each case i said i really doubt that. in EVERY case, my regular good diet cleared up the problem. skin problems - with the exception of hives - are more likely related to poor nutrition and/or gastrointestinal disturbance/malfunction [ which is usually itself a function of diet and/or infection - and infection proclivity and severity highly related to diet ].

Sharon: so often, things you say about Thor remind me of TraceDog. if i told TD ''no lick'' or ''no scratch'' with reference to a specific area, spot, stitches, etc, he simply would not whether he thought i was watching or not. i love a dog that can follow any instructions whether familiar or one-off!
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: allergies

Post by johninny »

sorry for a mental ''typo'' i made in the 3rd paragraph above. FSO should be FOS sugars.

MyGregorius: regardless of anything else, i would add a good Probiotic supplement to your dog's diet as skin problems are often the result of gastrointestinal malfunction [ most other skin problems relate to sub-optimal nutrition/dietary balance ]. but do make sure that the probiotic you choose does NOT contain inulin or FOS [fructooligosaccharides] which have become popular prEbiotic additions to probiotic supplements and yogurts recently. these sugars do fuel the growth of microflora in the gut but this is especially true for some other bacteria that are dangerous. so these ''new&improved'' probiotics should be avoided at all cost. [and as long as your dog is on the RC, he is already exposed to way too much FOS and other sugars.] FOS is also super fuel for fungi [ like Candida, which is found in any healthy dog!] that cause skin irritation, infection, and lesions.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Re: allergies

Post by LyonsFamily »

johninny wrote:with all of that in mind, allergies - which may or may not be a correct diagnosis in this case! - are not usually an exigent situation.
That's what I was trying to touch base on in my last paragraph. Aside from some of the new grain-free prescription food (which as far as I know RC doesn't offer), there isn't much to address removing allergens, but rather just reduce physical signs.
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johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
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Re: allergies

Post by johninny »

oh, i know. you addressed it so perfectly.
i hope i did not offend. your points on that [ dealing with allergies ] and on prescription foods in general were great. i just thought the latter might distract some people from the specific food in use on Gregorius so i wanted to separate that formulation from the general discussion that erupted over prescription foods for real maladies.
you always have such great and well-informed insight.

edit: i do hope myGregorius follows the regimen you and Stacy enunciated re dealing with allergies.
but i also hope that he and everyone else whose dog is given a diagnosis of food allergies by a vet will first consider whether it may be food quality and overall nutrition [ both listed ingredients AND the general quality and sourcing of those ingredients which varies dramatically from company to company ] that are causing the symptoms that are being read as allergies.

if any of us ate as our sole diet every day chicken macNuggets and mcD's french fries supplemented by a multi vitamin, we would soon develop all sorts of maladies, including bad skin, but it would not mean that we are allergic to chicken or potatoes. most people [thankfully not most people on DSf] feed their dogs mcNuggets and french fries every meal of their entire lives.
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Stacy_R
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Re: allergies

Post by Stacy_R »

In an effort to address solely the allergy issue, which like John said, may or may not be a definite diagnosis, there are also many environmental factors that cause allergic reactions (though I would still *strongly* suggest switching to a grain-free, animal protein-based, high quality food).

A couple of other things to consider:
Hypo-thyroidism can also *look* like allergies (itching, dry skin, hair loss, etc).
Also, if you have a dog who is exceptionally yeasty, this can present with the same symptoms as allergies (it's terribly itchy) but with an extra added pungent odor.
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