Shots... what is normal

[karenz]

Xander got his 1 year shots today. It was a very traumatic event for him. It was the first time I ever heard a dog scream. He was terrified. He is sore at the injection site which I would expect. But he is not himself. He is very droopy, very clingy and wants alot of attention, and he doesn't want to eat dinner or his favorite treats. His gums are not pale, he doesn't seem to have a temp, and no swelling. Maybe a little drippy nose but very little. I'm wondering if this is normal especially since it was so traumatic. I will be keeping a close eye on him tonight. Every other dog I've had has never acted any different after shots. Any input is appreciated, anything I should be concerned about or look out for?

[Mobil]

I've always been warned by vets that my animals could be less active our a little lethargic for the rest of the say after shots. And that tenderness at the injection site was possible.

If his skin is tough or he was hard to inject because he was tense, that can contribute to soreness.

[Mobil]

Rest of the day. Not say. Damn autocorrect.

[karenz]

He was beyond tense. He was absolutely terrified. So I did expect soreness, and he is very sore. I was mostly concerned with the other. He is very blah, lethargic, won't eat, and just plain looks pathetic. But doesn't have any serious side effects like hives or swelling.

[Stacy_R]

Some dogs don't do well with the annual combo vaccine...it's just too much at one time in their system. And honestly, once your dog has been fully vaccinated as a puppy, he/she is immune for many years (oftentimes for life).

If you have a holistic vet or dog food store nearby, you can ask for Thuja (it's a homeopathic vaccine detox for everything except rabies). You can try that for him.

I would say ask for a titer test next year if you are concerned that he may not be fully immunized. A titer test will show which (if any) vaccines need to be re-administered.

Lastly, typically only rabies is required by law...be sure to ask for the 3 year, not the 1 year (FYI...they are really the same vaccine...same drug given in the same amount, just labeled differently to satisfy state laws).

[karenz]

Thanks Stacy_R. His rabies is 3 year. His combo, corona, and bordetella are every year. I was planning on asking my vet about titer testing but I at least wanted him to get the vaccines at his 1 year mark. He is definitely not himself. He acted the same way as a puppy when he got his shots but not as extreme and bounced back quicker. And the fact that it was so traumatic for him doesn't help. I also thought about not doing all the shots at once so it's not so much on his system at once, maybe doing the yearly ones a month apart. He was so sore last night that if I touched him anywhere except his head and chest he would whine. I will definitely look for the thuja today.

[Mobil]

How is he doing today? Has he perked up?

[Stacy_R]

Karen -
Wow. That is a lot at one time. I think your idea of spreading them out is very good. If you decide to continue with the annuals in lieu of titers, you can give the Thuja after each vaccine.

If you are in Charlotte (I just saw that you are in NC), Pawtique carries the Thuja. They are in the Torringdon shopping center 485 and Johnston Road (west side of Johnston Road behind Sticky Fingers).

Just out of curiosity...why do you give the corona and bordatella vaccines?

Corona is typically spread just through already infected feces and oral secretions. The vaccine is not typically recommended (and is listed as a non recommended) because coronavirus responds well to supportive care and treatment and is rarely fatal. Usually, the only time you have to be even moderately concerned about corona is if your dog is highly exposed (such as kennels, breeding facilities, show rings, etc).

Bordatella is considered non-core and like with corona, you really only have to be concerned if he is in places where the exposure risk is high (or if you take him to a groomer that requires it).

Please don't take the question the wrong way....I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, I'm just curious as to what made you give the vaccines. I've never actually had a vet even suggest corona, hence my curiosity there. I'm all about asking questions and digging to find out more information.

[karenz]

Mobil: mom did text me earlier and said he wanted to go out and play ball so I guess he is feeling a little better.

StacyR: I'm not sure as to why the vet gives corona. They just always have. Maybe that is one we can just eliminate. The vet requires bordetella if you drop your dog off for anything since they will be in the kennels near other dogs. The only time he had to be dropped off and left is when he was neutered. But it's possible with my work schedule that he may would have to be dropped off for something. Of course rabies is required by law and I have read it is the most likely to cause problems because it is a dead virus and has stuff added to it to make it work. I'm leaning towards titer testing if my vet doesn't object. If he does I will have to decide if I want to find another vet. I really like him, he has been in practice a long time and seems very knowledgeable. But at times I feel he is a little old fashioned. But the experience and knowledge he has is incredible.

Is it unusual for dogs to react like Xander did or is that pretty common after vaccines?

[johninny]

Karen, i do not know the answer to your very last question as Tracedog only got his initial shots [ no reaction that i remember from 15 years ago ] and was titer tested each year or 2 the rest of his life showing very high immunity. but there is probably something to be learned from my current vet whom i love: she INSISTS that different vaccinations take place at least one week apart to minimize reactions/interactions. she is absolutely adamant in that respect.
so with 3 dogs you can imagine the parade of vet visits, especially since i vaccinate now for a whole host of things - lepto, lyme, bordatella, etc. With my current crew, i am not titer testing, at least not yet, because both Saki and Xander came to me in somewhat bad physical condition, particularly concerning their lungs which were so bad that there is some scarring [ so i want to have them at maximum protection against lung infection.]. Edit: oh, another reason i do not titer test is that i have assumed that their immune systems are not aided as much by diet as was TraceDog's as he got more raw [ and near raw ] grass fed beef and got raw bones [ marrow ] EVERY day. s,x and t experience these healthy delights relatively seldom. i should also add that i am just reporting on what i do now; i do think that titer-testing is a great way to go for a very healthy dog.

[karenz]

Johninny: I agree with your vet on spreading out the shots. All my previous dogs had no problems with vaccines so we just did them all at once and I let the vet do whatever ones he felt was needed. But with Xander I feel like I need to explore more options.

[Stacy_R]

I think it's becoming more common...or maybe it's just becoming more commonly noticed because pet parents are more aware and dogs are more like members of households instead of "just pets."

So here's the long and short of it: the vaccines (even though they don't *need* to be given every year...even rabies lasts more like 7 years) are used as the best way to get joe-dog-owner in for an annual physical exam. If they don't have to take their dog in for shots, the average person won't take their dog in for an annual physical. So the animal medical industry, for many, many years, has used "recommended core yearly" vaccines as a way to get the dogs in.

DISCLAIMER: for everyone who works for, with, or knows a vet, vet-tech or any other person or persons closely associated with the animal medical industry: I am not bashing, judging, or anything of the like. It just is what it is.

And for the record, I think that when this idea of annual vaccinations to get dogs in was first applied, it was meant for pure purposes and for the health of the animals. However, that being said, science has caught up to the reality that over-vaccination is a problem and not all (if any) vaccines really, truly need to be administered yearly (as it applies to the health of the dog). There are some people out there who are hard-core anti-vaccination and I am not in that group. I believe that there are very real threats to puppies (distemper and parvo are horrible to go through...I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy) and that certain vaccines should be given at certain times of puppyhood. But truly, once your dog is fully immunized and producing the antibodies to fight the virus, there is no need to continue pumping your dog with the vaccine. This is where titers testing comes in.

My min-pin is 11 and my mini-schnauzer is 10. Neither of them get anything besides rabies anymore (and only because it is required by law. Seriously, at 10 and 11 they have enough rabies vaccine in their systems to go vaccine free for the rest of their lives and then some). Tyson turns 2 in October and was *technically* due for his combo this past February. We skipped that. His annual physical is due in December and his rabies isn't due until 2016. I will have my vet run a titers on him in December to see where we stand immunity-wise.

For the record...our rescue has been inundated with parvo and distemper and although those puppies aren't at my house, I am there helping the foster with supportive care on an almost weekly basis. Those viruses shed and can be transmitted via human and none of my dogs (or the foster's personal dogs who have also not been re-vaccinated for DA2PP for several years) have come down with anything at all...not even a sniffle. That being said, we are uber-careful and bleach the heck out of everything we touch, but still...not even a sniffle.

No one but you can decide what you want to do for your dog. Education and information is key. I would be hesitant to use a vet who refused to run a titers test and who couldn't give me a compelling reason "why" they are recommending specific vaccines as they apply to my dog and my lifestyle (I'm not saying that your vet will refuse the test or not tell you why he suggests the corona vaccine, but if he refuses and if he were my vet, it would raise concerns for me. But that is just me.). Ask questions and don't take anything less than credible answers. It's your money and your dog...you have that right. And don't be afraid to research what he tells you. Sometimes old science is the best and sometimes it's not.

but there is probably something to be learned from my current vet whom i love: she INSISTS that different vaccinations take place at least one week apart to minimize reactions/interactions. she is absolutely adamant in that respect.

I love your vet. This is such a good protocol...I wish EVERY vet would insist on this!!!
FYI - lepto and lyme are typically high and moderate, respectively, on side effects, but I'm sure she has already told you that and is part of the reason that she wants everything spaced out. You can also use Thuja, John, for a system detox post vaccination.

[johninny]

she does give extra space to the lepto. also, she wants each dog to be very healthy at the time of a vaccination, especially with lepto, and wants Saki and Xander to be clear of any problems at the time of their bordatella shots because of their sensitive lungs.

i was initially skeptical of lyme and lepto vaccines, but she made an exceedingly compelling case for each [part of which was that both are out of control where we are]. i then researched extensively and am now so grateful that she suggested both; no other vet out here had ever recommended either [ none in city had either but they would have no reason to bring it up]. i was so impressed with the safety and method of action of the lyme vaccine that i tried to convince her to give it to me also. [ i did not expect or get any success on that score, but i was serious. ]

[LyonsFamily]

At the very least, if you want to continue with the vaccines for whatever reason, call your vet and let them know about the reactions so they can make a client note. It sounds like he's a vaccine reactor and a pre-med would probably be a good idea even if he only ever goes back in for the mandatory rabies. They use injectable benedryl at my clinic and wait something like 15-20 minutes before giving the shot and it usually is met with pretty good success for even the more serious reactors. The benedryl also calms down anxious dogs. Lepto always has the worst response rate, so they pre-med at least 60% of the time, especially in little dogs. As for bordatella, you may want to try oral bordatella next time as we've seen very little reactions with that and that's what I insist on for foster dogs when the rescues want me to vaccinate for transport.

My my own dogs, they get rabies every 3 years at the vet and DHPP (no Lepto) as puppies and again at 1 year from the vet. I titer every 3 years for Distemper and Parvo and give individual vaccines at home if needed after that. Odin had the lepto vaccine when we lived in Chicago as there is a very high rat population and he liked to play in open fields and at parks a lot, but I won't vaccinate for it again after working for a clinic that required it and seeing the reactions to a vaccine that doesn't even last a year. That's one of the big reasons we stopped doing barn hunt.

[Dutchringgirl]

I never never give a bunch at once! My vet is very cool about that too.

[Mobil]

I wonder if the three year rabies vaccine came about because of more vets doing titers and reporting longer efficacy rates. It would be interesting to see if other vaccines start becoming recommended at wider intervals.

Our vet will not give out the three year vaccine tag for yearlings, even though it's the same vaccine given
initially. When the next rabies vaccine is due is
when the three year tag is given.
Oh and my pups were a little extra calm and took lots of naps after their shots.

[LyonsFamily]

I wonder if the three year rabies vaccine came about because of more vets doing titers and reporting longer efficacy rates. It would be interesting to see if other vaccines start becoming recommended at wider intervals.

AVMA (as well as AAHA) shot protocol is the core distemper series every 3 years now. Lepto is every year still because it's a bacterin vaccine and there's evidence that it doesn't even last the whole year. The same applies for bordatella, lyme, and corona. You'll get vets with mixed opinions about whether many of these should be given every 6 or 12 months.

Here's a link to that protocol. http://www.mobilevetservice.net/docs/ca ... 0chart.pdf In my opinion, all vets should be following at least the AVMA protocol on vaccines and I would question any vet that isn't (aside from state mandated rabies procedures) as it's been pretty well known for a while now.

At our clinic (we're AAHA accredited), we require up to date rabies for all surgeries and invasive vet/vet tech procedures unless excepted due to age or illness (or pregnancy). DHPP every 3 years is recommended for regular clients and is what we give out. For boarding and grooming, Lepto is required annually. The Lepto vaccine is required 1. because it's zoonotic and can be dangerous to staff and easily spread during boarding and grooming and 2. because it gets clients in every year for an exam since we often lost people when the core vaccines got extended (like Stacy said) We give a free exam with the Lepto vaccine so clients spend the money either way.

[Stacy_R]

AVMA (as well as AAHA) shot protocol is the core distemper series every 3 years now. Lepto is every year still because it's a bacterin vaccine and there's evidence that it doesn't even last the whole year. The same applies for bordatella, lyme, and corona. You'll get vets with mixed opinions about whether many of these should be given every 6 or 12 months.

Stephanie - you beat me to it.

And I just want to be clear so that I do not offend anyone. There are real reasons to administer certain vaccines (e.g. lepto, lyme, corona) that do not necessarily apply to everyone due to lifestyle, dog activities, and where you live. The important thing is to do your own research and not just blindly do it because that is how that particular vet has done it forever. (It's the same thing with human medicine and doctors.)

[karenz]

First, thank you all for this great information. I will be talking to my vet very soon, possibly today, to see what he says about all of this. I hope he is open to titer testing as I really trust him, especially for anything serious. He office has an incredible operating room and icu unit. He has performed some difficult serious operations with great success. This includes my dad's ds mia who he removed a HUGE lipoma from her chest neck area that was intertwined in muscles and tendons. He did an excellent job. He is also honest if it is something he doesn't feel he can handle. And he has a vet who comes from the vet school when needed if it is something he doesn't feel comfortable doing.

I am leaning toward rabies every three years with pretreatment for reactions. And then titer testing for the other core (recommended) vaccines and doing those as needed.

I had done the first lime vaccine as a puppy but opted to not continue because he told me that was one of the more likely ones to cause a reaction. I apply drops for ticks and Xander does not go to high ticks areas very often.

I am curious about the lepto and corona. Xander does not board or go to groomers or even come in contact with dogs much. We do go to the park or pet store or to visit the obedience classes.

So do yall feel that the lepto and corona are not necessary for him? And how often should I titer, every year? Also, are yall saying that the combo shots can be done separate so that he only gets the one he may need or they could be spread out as to not hit him with everything at once?

And while on this topic my vet pushes Trifexis. Xander has had no problems with it. What is yalls opinion on it?

[Stacy_R]

I am curious about the lepto and corona. Xander does not board or go to groomers or even come in contact with dogs much. We do go to the park or pet store or to visit the obedience classes.

So do yall feel that the lepto and corona are not necessary for him? And how often should I titer, every year?

Unless Xander spends a lot of time in the water (ponds, puddles, etc) or around wildlife areas, I would say lepto shouldn't be too much of a concern. The bacteria (there are several strains) are transmitted through urine that then contaminates water sources. It can also remain infectious in soil for up to six months. Dogs pick up the bacteria through a cut or break in the skin or if they drink contaminated water (this is why my dogs are never allowed to drink from puddles...anywhere). I don't know where in NC you are, but where I am, lepto is not a major issue like it has been in the North and North East over the last several years.

As I said earlier, if Xander isn't typically housed in close confinement, such as boarding/training kennels, shelter facilities, dog shows, etc, I would say he should be fine without it.

Titer tests can be done very three years.