Ball drive

[Childsey1]

Hi,
amber is 8month old now and I need help and tips to stop her chasing any balls in the park, I'm in the uk so we don't have dog parks here, just parks for everyone and lots of woods and large fields. So you can imagine we have all sorts playing ball games from dog owners to kids, adults.
I'm training amber for working trials and ipo where a lot of trainers like to use high ball drive to achieve certain goals within this field, I myself use a tuggy which is a rope tied into a ball loped into a handle very similar to a ball on a rope, the reason I use this instead of a ball, I can get the same drive out of amber using something which she won't see in everyday life in the parks. The problem I've got is amber does so well out while training, but the moment someone turns up with a ball her consentration is lost I have to work so much harder to gain her back again. I know she just a puppy and with constant training this will pass, hopefully. Has any one experienced this and come up with any ideas to over come this?
Thanks
Paul

[leih merigian]

Paul, I'd treat this like a lot of other things. Work with her at a distance that won't set her off (e.g., if she can stay focused in spite of someone else working with that kind of toy at a certain distance, stay at that distance). I'd also make sure that her engagement with you is very solid; then other people with their balls shouldn't be an issue. Also, while you described the kind of ball toy you use, I'd make sure to have her favorite toy with you.

If you can't keep her focused on you when this occurs, then I'd forgo working there when others are there until you can keep her focused on you, as she's just getting practice at doing that.

She is very young yet.

Maybe not much help here ...with any luck, you'll get better advice soon

[Dutchringgirl]

awww, Leih is being modest!! She always gives such great advice!! At 8 months her attention span is short, shoot at 2 years Sadie's attention span is still short, but thats Sadie LOL.

"Leave it" is also a great training aid as well. For now though, I would go with Leih's suggestion, only work at her comfortable distance to keep her focus on you. You always have to be more desirable then what is over there, her favorite toy with you and your engagement with her will keep her focus on you until she matures more and more and you can get closer and closer.

[Sugars Mom]

I agree with Leih and Lisa...what they said : )

[Childsey1]

Hey Leih/Lisa
Thanks for your reply and advise, my working distance is about 50m any closer I have to hold onto the 10m training line and work hard, the tug is her favourite toy I have 4 of them which I use in training as you would a ball on a rope, as a reward. I suppose I've been blessed with my two mastiff who don't possess a high ball drive like amber, sometimes wonder while trainers choose balls to use, when there are so many of them out and about. I've starting to use the flood and drain system with amber around things that really get her going, I know it will take a lot longer to train her but hopefully with better results.
Lisa, the leave it command I use on my Boerboel, the trainer I'm with doesn't like it and likes us to use no, but I'm thinking ill go behind his back and start using it.
Thanks

[Dutchringgirl]

I use, "No" and "leave it" it all depends what comes out of my mouth first. They both know No and Leave it mean the same thing. I do like Leave it though. Or you can use other words for different circumstances. You can use Look to get her to pay attention to you and make eye contact then reward her and that may help when she is focusing on the other balls in the field.

[Childsey1]

Lisa,
I find it hard to find and use the right commands for certain activity, especially when you go to trainers who prefer to use their commands, I could do with a book on commands and then stick to it, I'm confused half the time, god knows what's going through Amber's mind.
No command, I like to use this when they have done something which is not acceptable, amber knows the look command which I was doing this the other day, but I will explain this on the dog aggression page, yep I've got a good story there to share

[Dutchringgirl]

I had so many commands when I was doing Ring Sport, many were just for the Ring. My trainers didnt care what commands I used as long as I was consistent with them and got the results we were looking for. Personally I dont care either what command someone uses, again, as long as they are getting the result. I like NO for when they do something really bad and Leave it for when they are just picking something up they shouldnt, and I dont want them to get upset. You could get yourself a notebook and write down what you want to use for what command, all that matters is you and the pup know what means what and you are consistent.

[leih merigian]

Paul, I am like Lisa, I have a TON of commands. You do get used to them .

Part of it is how you define each separate cue. And, how you define a cue is entirely up to you, but as Lisa says, the thing you have to do is to be consistent with their use. In other words, the same cue always means the same thing.

I love "leave it." The way I define it is "immediately leave whatever it is alone, turn to me and give me eye contact, and come to me pronto." You already have the "look" part. Basically, in the situation you've described, you're just trying to get her focused back on you.

It's also very important to train any cue you're going to use at home, in a low distraction environment, before trying to go out and use it at a field where the distraction level is very high.

I don't know what you mean by "the flood and drain system," unless you're talking about flooding, which you may not be and which isn't always a great technique to use. Training words/definitions are difficult enough to agree on when you're in the same room, let alone on different continents .

No is another one that's used so many different ways....I use it as a simple Non Reward Marker, with zero negative spin on it.

Not sure about your trainer...I always tell my people I don't care what words they use, as long as they're consistent in using them, and fair to the dog, in that they've clearly defined it for the dog and taught it to the dog. Of course, they do tend to end up using my words and definitions .

You mentioned that you're confused...that's a big clue for you there. If you're confused, your pup can't be clear, either. I like Lisa's suggestion of making a list for yourself...and I'd recommend you back up and make sure you've clearly defined each command/cue for yourself, in terms of exactly what behavior(s) you mean, and that you've also explained them to your pup to the point where she understands them.

[Selena]

I use NEE (no) what means stop whatever you' re doing, you can use it in many different situations .

[Christie M]

In my opinion, it is your dog and therefor you work her and they offer advice and adjust your methods....but maybe don't handle her. Or if they do, they then need to be respectful of your verbiage.

I am a big advocate of the Ivan Balabanov series "Training Without Conflict." You initiate the game, make its rules and end it. For me, there is only one toy and that is the one I am holding. From there, they only have access to it when I release them to engage in play. Obviously this is a built foundation (and something I struggled with my current working dog) but the video helps you set up those rules from the beginning and build towards that goal.

[Childsey1]

Hi,
Thanks for all your repls,, my teacher says I often don't explain myself correcting.
When I mean I get confused on commands, what i exactly mean is I'm consistent on using commands and cues but I sometimes feel I could of used a better command for an action and wished I could of changed the command to something best suited, I've taught amber come but I much prefer here, so could I use this during ipo/working trails and come when she not working? Find it for article search, hold for retrieval, are just some of the commands I'm not 100% on. I've down loaded a list of commands and going to have a chat with my trainer, his a very good trainer but stuck in his ways. I think it's just because there is a lot of novice dog owners at his club and wants to keep things simple. I do mean flooding, your right it might delay the process of her learning, once a week I train in the field where school kids are present, she wanted to give chase once and now I'm trying to teach her that I'm more exciting than school kids playing and running, flooding this is all done on a training line. Thanks again
Paul

[leih merigian]

Hi,
I've taught amber come but I much prefer here, so could I use this during ipo/working trails and come when she not working?

It's all up to you. I have at least 6 different "come" cues. 3 different "down" cues. 3 differernt "find it" cues. Some are the formal and working cues, some are the informal cues.

All you have to do is define each cue for your dog. It's that simple. Reward the behavior you want to associate with each cue. Done.

[Dutchringgirl]

same here, I have "go couche' for go over there and lay down, and "couche" for down right where you are. I also had formal working cues and home cues and some I still use for play, "apport' for bring even when we are just goofing around. "Hey" is a great one that has many many meanings and they respond correctly each time

If you want them to come to front, come to side, each is different. But again, its up to you , these dogs are smart. Make a list of how you want to do it and the different activities and the command for each. Start small so you both dont get overwhelmed. It will come together, dont worry.

[Childsey1]

Leih/Lisa

That's the answer I was after, thanks . i want commands I use for ipo/working trails so amber understands when we are out on the battle field training then this is the only time I want amber to be serious about working , I always thought I could have two commands just depending on the situation I put amber in, so I use these commands amber will put her into a working frame of mind and when I'm at normal dog school where we are not training for sport then she can relax and play gently without stressing herself out, hopefully with training I can apply this, so I will make a list of working sport commands separately from play, ie non contact sport. Thanks to you two for clearing this up for me.
Going back to ball drive, do you two use ball drive ? And why?

[Dutchringgirl]

I use what ever drive the dog has. thalie has always had a strong toy drive, so when I was doing Ring, i had a tug with me at all times. She works for the tug toy. When we did agility she would finnish the course then go take it out of my pocket. LOL. Sadie didnt have a toy drive as a puppy, but a strong food drive, so she worked for food. She did develope a toy drive, so now she works for toys.

[leih merigian]

Like Lisa, I use her toy/play drive too. I like tug for close-to-me reinforcement, fetch/balls more for exercise, but also, as a reward. My dog loves them both. My shoulders don't love the tug as much, so it's rationed these days .

[Dutchringgirl]

My shoulders don't love the tug as much, so it's rationed these days .

I hear ya on the joints, my elbows dont like the tug, Sadie is dangerous to play tug with. She has a killer twist.

[feraloup]

I, too, like the variety of cues for different levels of importance or formality. "Come" is very formal, it means race immediately to me and sit and await further instructions. In less formal situations "Here" and "To me!" work when it's a more casual recall. "NO" means whatever you are doing and whatever the circumstances, cease and desist IMMEDIATELY, freeze!" "Leave it" is a favorite. I use "wrong" said in a very casual tone as a neutral non-reward marker. Then there are a myriad very casual "commands" in daily life, for example, all of my dogs over the years have learned that "chill" means "bring it down a notch and relax"

[Childsey1]

Hi Lisa,Leih,
I find amber is mostly in high prey drive, she won't give up so I use her tug which I feel releasing that tension that can build up in high prey drive, which is the main reason she so wants to gve chase with other (people's/dogs) balls . I think I may start switching her into herding drive while out to see if she does not feel the need to chase the balls, the only game springs to mind while on the field is a tidy up game, she does have a high herding drive when you gve her a task to perform, she doesn't give up until she has completed it, but this drive often crosses over to prey with her rewards ie ball or tug.