Submissiveness

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Dotson101
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Tell us about yourself: I have a Dutch shepherd puppy who is my whole world.

Submissiveness

Post by Dotson101 »

Hey all, I have a 10 1/2 month old Dutchie. He is a phenomenal pup in terms of what he can do training wise. He's my first working dog and only my second dog I've worked with. He's so smart that people think I've been training dogs forever (I'm only 22). He makes it all so easy. The issue I am having, and the thing I really hope to overcome is his submissive urination. I bought him at 5 months of age and from day one he had this submissive peeing. I will admit that I didn't handle it it correctly because I never had this problem before. I may have reinforced the behavior a few times by scolding him for it. Jax seems super confident around people and definitely doesn't back down from other dogs, but he's very calm and collected. His submissive behaviors show randomly. The question I have is.. is this something he can grow out of with work? Or is it already too late? It's weird because when we do bite work, the decoy can be as aggressive as he wants and it doesn't phase him, but when in unfamiliar or stressful situations he will tuck his tail and pee.
TimL_168
Working Dog
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Tell us about yourself: I am: a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. We added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
Location: central MD

Re: Submissiveness

Post by TimL_168 »

I've never really had to deal with this until very recently. En will sometimes urinate if she thinks she's in trouble. Gotta run right now. I'll get back on here later.
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor
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cordeliandemon
Training Dog
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Tell us about yourself: owner of a male Dutch Shepherd and female Alaskan Malamute
Location: Ireland

Re: Submissiveness

Post by cordeliandemon »

im not sure how you might help fix that, hopefull someone will come along with some experience with that:)
demon just pees if hes EXTREMELY happy to see someone (likely if he hasnt seen them in about 6 months). he doesnt do it with me or in normal interactions though so ive never tried change it, i just tell whoever hes excited about to watch their shoes dont get wet :eew:
Sadhbh (pronounced "Sive", its an irish name) -
Demon (dutch shepherd)
Koda (alaskan malamute)
Sidney (collie/springer spaniel)- R.I.P
Dotson101
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Tell us about yourself: I have a Dutch shepherd puppy who is my whole world.

Re: Submissiveness

Post by Dotson101 »

Bump
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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Owned by Hondo and Mustang - two MAD rescue dogs.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: Submissiveness

Post by centrop67 »

There are lots of articles on the internet on this subject:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 452-1.html
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/submissive-urination
http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/do ... ation.html

The problem I see is that even though there are explanations given, I am not sure there's been a whole lot of research on the subject (I could be wrong). The behavior is thought to be a way for the dog to signal that he/she is not a threat AND it is involuntary. There's also something they call excitement urination which is a little different as well.

Some of the articles above start by trying to change the owners attitude on the behavior, but when you're training a dog for protection, the last thing you want is a "I'm not a threat" signal.

My Radar has done this. He does it when I return from a trip, or when someone he's met comes to the house after not being there a while. He has not ever done this with strangers, though.

Over time, however he does this less and less, so I am thinking he might be getting more confident.

If only they could talk to us :whistle:
Michael
Location - Cutler Bay, FL USA
Image RIP: Leela, Radar, Tequila, and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
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centrop67
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Re: Submissiveness

Post by centrop67 »

If you haven't had a chance, check out my review of the book:

Beware the Straw Man
The Science Dog Explores Dog Training Fact & Fiction
by Linda P. Case http://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/

I sent an email to the author this morning asking about this topic. Specifically, I was asking her if there was much research on the subject, and if she could share some good sources for help. I wasn't expecting what I got in reply :shock:

Apparently, she is finalizing a new book that has some information on this very subject, and she was kind enough to share with us the unedited text from the chapter. :wtg:

Down below you'll find links to her books and her website. I hope you take a few moments to check them out.

Here's the text she sent me:

Submissive and excitable urination are actually two separate disorders but are often discussed together because it can be difficult to distinguish between the two behaviors. Some dogs, especially if young, may show both types of urination but in different contexts.

Submissive urination: Submissive urination is seen in dogs who show excessively submissive body postures during greeting. Although this is most commonly reported as a problem during interactions with their owners or other people, dogs can also submissively urinate when greeting another dog. The dog greets with lowered head, averted eyes, retracted lips, and dribbles urine as the person or dog moves closer (Figure 8-2). Submissive greeting is normal for young puppies who are interacting with adult dogs and for many puppies when they greet humans. Most dogs gain confidence as they mature and no longer demonstrate this level of deference. However, some dogs either do not develop adequate confidence as adults or have learned to offer extreme appeasement in response to harsh reprimands for jumping up or for misbehaving during the owner’s absence. A common but very unfortunate scenario is the owner who has verbally or physically reprimanded the dog each time that the dog has been destructive when left alone. This reaction not only causes the dog to show extreme appeasement and possibly to urinate when greeting, but also increases the dog’s level of anxiety.

Treatment: Submissive urination can be prevented by decreasing the intensity of greetings and avoiding standing or leaning over the dog while interacting. An effective approach to diffuse intense interactions is to redirect the dog by tossing a high value treat/biscuit or toy to the side as the dog approaches to greet. The dog’s movement to the side positions her out of direct eye contact and prevents the owner or visitor from standing directly over the dog. After the dog has consumed several treats in this way, she is greeted with the owner or visitor crouching down and positioning himself laterally (from the side) to avoid leaning over the dog. It is also helpful to train the dog to offer a reliable sit-stay for petting in non-greeting contexts (i.e. when excitement level is low). The sit-stay for greeting is then incorporated into greeting situations, with the treat offered to the side as a reinforcer when the dog sits (see Chapter *** for a complete discussion).

Excitable Urination: Excitable urination differs from submissive urination in that while it can occur during greeting it may also happen when a young dog becomes excited or during play. Dogs who show excitable urination often do not squat, but rather dribble small amounts of urine as they walk or jump around. Body postures and communication signals that accompany excitable urination do not reflect excessive submission but rather are those of an excited and possibly over-stimulated dog. Because excitable urination is often caused by a lack of complete neuromuscular control of the urinary sphincter, most dogs stop showing this form of urination as they mature.

Treatment: As with submissive urination, treatment involves decreasing the intensity of greeting and play to prevent over-arousal. Redirecting the dog’s attention to toys or training the dog to retrieve a ball can provide exercise and play while reducing excitement. Greeting intensity can also be decreased by providing the dog with several minutes to romp outside before interacting. This also allows the dog to empty her bladder prior to greeting. Similar to the treatment for submissive urination, teaching a sit-stay for greeting can help to prevent excitable urination, provided the sit-stay is first taught in a quiet environment. Distractions that typically excite the dog are then gradually introduced. When behavior modification alone is not effective, the medication phenylpropanolamine can be used as an adjunctive therapy. This must be prescribed by a veterinarian and functions to increase sphincter tone in the urethra. Although phenylpropanolamine is more typically prescribed to curtail urinary incontinence, it can also help to reduce excitable urination. Behavioral modification should continue and the drug is gradually reduced and eliminated as the dog improves.


Linda Case
AutumnGold Consulting & Dog Training Center (www.autumngoldconsulting.com)
Newest Books: “Only Have Eyes for You“ (http://tinyurl.com/hacwqrn); Dog Food Logic” (http://goo.gl/vPrFoK) and “Beware the Straw Man” (http://tinyurl.com/kqeccu8)
Author; The Science Dog http://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/

BTW - On the research aspect, this is what she had to say:
http://thesciencedog.wordpress.com wrote:I have not found any recent research regarding submissive urination in dogs, but the information that I have suggests that our understanding of this has not changed much in recent years.
Michael
Location - Cutler Bay, FL USA
Image RIP: Leela, Radar, Tequila, and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
TimL_168
Working Dog
Posts: 1371
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am: a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. We added Endeavor in April 2016. She was not working out in HRD. I train for game recovery and general utility.
Location: central MD

Re: Submissiveness

Post by TimL_168 »

Wow. This is why I love this forum. Thank you!
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor
Dotson101
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Tell us about yourself: I have a Dutch shepherd puppy who is my whole world.

Re: Submissiveness

Post by Dotson101 »

Awesome! Thanks for the help!
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Laplaiefier
Puppy
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Tell us about yourself: Dogs are a good reflection of their owners?
LOL I must be hardheaded and stubborn.
I guess before and after results with dogs tend to show the effort put into them.
Location: California, USA

Re: Submissiveness

Post by Laplaiefier »

OK, I had to drop a note (oops turned into a book) here since we've never had as much a problem before with this as with this Duchie. And he's not a roll over. More like I'm gonna eat you alive until, "oh hi :) " and yet there was a time around 5 months old it was, yep you are home, I'm a happy dog; pee on the floor. I mean seriously, what do you do when you first get out of bed?
Now we have had a bunch of dogs in our life and it seems its a lot of things. But the first and foremost is physical via selfcontrol, age and breed. Secondly, I really believe its part of being noticed. "Hey, smell that? I'm here notice me."
The most other common reason for ignoring the rules and peeing on the floor is that no matter what you do short of painting the underlayment and putting down new floor covering, you can't hide the odor of any animal that has urinated there before. And again its "hey I'm here, this is my place." And yes, the alpha dog doesn't need attention. He's alpha. He is the attention. Nerves, loss of control, its all part of it but it always seems to pass with simple leash trainning, learning the rules and being separated while the object of transgression is removed. I do hold their nose in it before their time out so they know why. But that's providing they know they broke the rules.
You know that saying, never let the Sun set upon your anger. Dogs have short memories and they just want to be accepted. And somewhere in every dog no matter how buried or how obvious, they want to be loved and a part of the pack.
Forgive me if I sound like some kind of you know what. This is just from our experience.
Tim91118
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Re: Submissiveness

Post by Tim91118 »

So is your dog submissively urinating or is he urinating because it’s his place and he’ll do what he wants when he wants ?
Tim
User avatar
Laplaiefier
Puppy
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Tell us about yourself: Dogs are a good reflection of their owners?
LOL I must be hardheaded and stubborn.
I guess before and after results with dogs tend to show the effort put into them.
Location: California, USA

Re: Submissiveness

Post by Laplaiefier »

Tim91118 wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:22 pm So is your dog submissively urinating or is he urinating because it’s his place and he’ll do what he wants when he wants ?
At first he was just a puppy and you go through the routine of wait 5 min after eating, watch for the signs and outside and good dog. House trainned in one week. ;)
Then it got cold out side. "Hec no its cold outside." Which resolved to, "OK, cold or no cold. It's better than a scolding and jail." Then it's, "I wasn't the first one to pee here" from my dad's cat years ago or sombody's baby; either or. Then I started ignoring him since he was getting older and brought on another.
All seperate incidences separated by several weeks. And each event went on for 2-3 days until he decided it wasn't worth the consequences of jail. This is the same dog that learned to wait for his food after 2 days and was retrieving a ball in less than a week at 9 weeks old.
His self will and excitement really gets in the way a lot. He's got pull tabs down to an art because he wants the door or gate open. Watch dog with dicriminating memory? Got that one down.
My wife keeps telling me, "you were the one that wanted to know what it would be like to train a wolf." No thanks.
He's growing out of his tudes. Sheesh, teenagers.
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