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KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
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Indi
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KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:24 pm

It's a bit of a loaded question, I know, but please bear with me! :mrgreen:

We've just taken possession of a nine-month old girl from KNPV lines and it's probably a bit late to be asking this now, but does anyone here have experience with Dutchies, Mals and X-Mal/X-Dutch to shed some light on any perceived difference between them?

We have a German shepherd trained in obedience, agility and protection work, but he's quite old now and so we started looking into Dutchies primarily based on what I'd read about their health, temperament, trainability etc, and the oft-quoted description of "somewhere between a GSD and a Malinois".

It would have been nice to have met a few Dutchies before we acquired this girl, but they're few and far between and we were fortunate to have been offered her, as she appears to come from good stock. On the flip side, her previous owner had not put much work into her and so we have a few little issues to deal with.

We've started obedience and will begin IPO work soon. Those who have met her, including IPO trainers, working-line breeders and Mal owners, have laughed when we said we weren't really looking for a Mal. "You've got a black/brindle Mal!" they all say.

Yeah, I know. KNPV lines are mixed. And our dog has all X-Hollandse Herders in the first three generations, with a few X Mals on the dam's side after that.

So far she has been very good, but it's hard to tell what her true temperament is or will be like in such a short time and after the stress of relocating her. But she is affectionate, smart, stubborn, possessive, territorial, a bit vocal and fairly resilient (keeps falling into the swimming pool, but that doesn't stop her walking along the edge!). She's a lovely dog, but will need a lot of time and a firm but fair, consistent hand.

So the question is, are the KNPV lines closer to Mals, Dutchies or in-between, and what should we expect? It's a general question, I know, but even general answers would be helpful. We're not really looking for titles (maybe BH), but we do want to bond with her, have some fun and get her to a reasonable level where she is very much under our control and knows what is expected of her - which is primarily companionship, personal protection and a little bit of sport (agility).

Thanks for any advice!

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by centrop67 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:55 pm

Seems like a common question. In fact, a Google Search for "FCI vs KNPV" has about 7200 results.

There's a previous post on this forum that shows up 2nd in the list, and it may shed some light: FCI vs KNPVk

I also find this interesting: http://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/history

The question I would ask is how bad would it be if your dog wasn't really a Dutch Shepherd, but was a great companion, protector, and overall working dog?

My Radar is 50% DS, 25% Mal, and 25% GSD according to the DNA. That works for me, because I didn't go to the rescue looking for a working dog. I just ended up with a phenomenal dog.
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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm

Works for me, too. A good dog is a good dog and I don't really care about papers or anything like that - my GSD doesn't have papers. The reason I ask is I have a good idea what to expect out of a GSD, and I've seen a few Mals. But I've never met a Dutchy and I guess I was curious to know what are the specific traits associated with them?

The KNPV vs FCI debate appears to be a minefield. But again I'm just curious if you put them side-by-side, what would be the stand-out differences? I can already see some physical differences, but even that's not clear-cut, as some KNPV Dutchies look more like Mals, while some look more like "standard" (FCI?) Dutchies, and even some KNPV Mals look more like GSDs.

Thanks for the links.

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by TimL_168 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:17 pm

Lol, minefield. That, it most certainly is. Lots of opinions, very little knowledge& facts.
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:01 pm

Your dog is brindle you have a dutch shepherd malinois cross in Holland they call the brindle dogs Dutchies and the fawn dogs malinois the pedigree states it’s a cross so they put an X to let you know it’s a mix... there really aren’t many dutch shepherds that don’t have malinois or gsd in them that are knpv line dogs... Yodas pedigree is heavy dutch shepherd but his great grandmother was a malinois and his great great grandfather was a gsd... I really don’t give a shit about pure or not that’s just how the dutch do it to produce superior working dogs... they don’t falsify paperwork they just call them a mix on the pedigree and call it by it’s look...

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:35 am

Thanks Steve. That's really why I asked the question.
Last edited by Indi on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 am

TimL_168 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:17 pm
Lol, minefield. That, it most certainly is. Lots of opinions, very little knowledge& facts.
Yes. I thought the German shepherd world was political . . . then I discovered Dutchies! :eek:

Well I guess I see both sides of the argument. Pretty much all breeds started out as "bitsas" (bit of this, bit of that), where desirable traits came together and evolved for an intended purpose leading to a particular form.

But it was only by standardising these traits and forms that breeds were created. And it was only by keeping records and breeding along certain lines that those traits and forms were kept. So there is a place for having a registry - if there wasn't, the bloodline charts wouldn't exist and the KNPV lines wouldn't have BRNs etc.

I'm not sure if I agree with registry exclusion, though. It exists to exclude undesirable traits. But it also excludes desirable traits. You know the old saying: "If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck." Why not the same for dogs? Pedigree has its use, but also its impediments.

I guess it all comes down to "what is a breed"? Is it a look? Is it a function? Is it a temperament? Isn't it all of those things that go together to make a breed the best at what it was bred for? Isn't that why schutzhund was part of the German shepherd standard?

On the flip side, German shepherds are not just protection dogs. And neither were Dutch shepherds.

KNPV dogs are police dogs - that is their primary and intended purpose, from what I see. That function has led to a certain form.

On the other hand, FCI dogs are bred for conformation, but many are also worked and titled so still possess the same or similar function.

To what degree do they cross over?

Maybe the question can't be answered.

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by TimL_168 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:17 am

I definitely see your point, and agree most of the way.
Regarding the "like a duck"part: I'll give a rudimentary example. Little Johnny has an 80 lb brindle dog with a long muzzle and pointy ears. Little Johnny thinks the dog is a dutch shepherd. In fact, the dog is a pit X GSD. Little Johnny's dog gets the coloration and maybe some mouthy-ness/drive from the pit, and gets the build from the GSD. So the dog doesn't act or look all together unlike a DS. And that's all good for Johnny...unless Johnny decides to breed his dog as a DS. At that point, the genetic toilet has been flushed. There's no telling what qualities the dogs ancestors are dumping into the gene pool. So, as you pointed out, registries are highly useful.
With regards to the character of modern KNPV dogs vs old farm dogs, I'm not qualified in any way to speculate. I can say this, though; I've spent a good bit of time on my extended family's farm. The best, most useful dogs there were hard headed, "you're cool but I hate everybody else" herders. They don't treat their farm dogs a pets.
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:32 pm

Indi wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 am
TimL_168 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:17 pm
Lol, minefield. That, it most certainly is. Lots of opinions, very little knowledge& facts.
Yes. I thought the German shepherd world was political . . . then I discovered Dutchies! :eek:

Well I guess I see both sides of the argument. Pretty much all breeds started out as "bitsas" (bit of this, bit of that), where desirable traits came together and evolved for an intended purpose leading to a particular form.

But it was only by standardising these traits and forms that breeds were created. And it was only by keeping records and breeding along certain lines that those traits and forms were kept. So there is a place for having a registry - if there wasn't, the bloodline charts wouldn't exist and the KNPV lines wouldn't have BRNs etc.

I'm not sure if I agree with registry exclusion, though. It exists to exclude undesirable traits. But it also excludes desirable traits. You know the old saying: "If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck." Why not the same for dogs? Pedigree has its use, but also its impediments.

I guess it all comes down to "what is a breed"? Is it a look? Is it a function? Is it a temperament? Isn't it all of those things that go together to make a breed the best at what it was bred for? Isn't that why schutzhund was part of the German shepherd standard?

On the flip side, German shepherds are not just protection dogs. And neither were Dutch shepherds.

KNPV dogs are police dogs - that is their primary and intended purpose, from what I see. That function has led to a certain form.

On the other hand, FCI dogs are bred for conformation, but many are also worked and titled so still possess the same or similar function.

To what degree do they cross over?

Maybe the question can't be answered.
I’m a working dog guy! So to me the knpv bred dogs fit my lifestyle better! I still health test and when I breed I base it of health and genetics! All that other shit doesn’t matter to me so much as long as I have good looking healthy dogs with the desirable traits I personally look for.... by the way you still have to have an ipo1 in Germany to breed your gsd ;)

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:35 pm

Go back and look what happened to the dutch shepherd back in the early days when they exceluded any color but brindle... the breed almost went extinct... akc is a very good example of what selecting look and conformation over temperament does to breeds!

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:59 am

TimL_168 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:17 am
I definitely see your point, and agree most of the way.
Regarding the "like a duck"part: I'll give a rudimentary example. Little Johnny has an 80 lb brindle dog with a long muzzle and pointy ears. Little Johnny thinks the dog is a dutch shepherd. In fact, the dog is a pit X GSD. Little Johnny's dog gets the coloration and maybe some mouthy-ness/drive from the pit, and gets the build from the GSD. So the dog doesn't act or look all together unlike a DS. And that's all good for Johnny...unless Johnny decides to breed his dog as a DS. At that point, the genetic toilet has been flushed. There's no telling what qualities the dogs ancestors are dumping into the gene pool. So, as you pointed out, registries are highly useful.
I completely agree with your analogy. All I would add is that they do have DNA testing these days, so perhaps the officiating bodies could get with the times and, if someone wanted to register a paperless dog and was prepared to have their dog's DNA matched against the known breed, then there could be some leeway?

That would address two issues: confirmation of heritage (if not exact bloodline) and expanding the gene pool.

As it is, forging of pedigree papers has been a known issue with all breeds down the ages, while artificial insemination can introduce another element of doubt.
TimL wrote:With regards to the character of modern KNPV dogs vs old farm dogs, I'm not qualified in any way to speculate. I can say this, though; I've spent a good bit of time on my extended family's farm. The best, most useful dogs there were hard headed, "you're cool but I hate everybody else" herders. They don't treat their farm dogs a pets.
All herders are stubborn from what I've seen. They have to be, as they need that independent streak and problem-solving skills to work unsupervised. That's one of the Dutch shepherd traits I admire.

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:28 am

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:35 pm
Go back and look what happened to the dutch shepherd back in the early days when they exceluded any color but brindle... the breed almost went extinct... akc is a very good example of what selecting look and conformation over temperament does to breeds!
I've owned bull terriers - another stubborn, charismatic breed I really love (but are not for everyone) - and the same thing happened to them. They were almost extinct at the beginning of last century until the US kennel club allowed them to be crossed back to the staffordshire terrier. Now bullies come in all colours, including the original white. But they do still have a small gene pool and their fair share of health issues - exacerbated by the fact they are not as popular anymore as they were in the 80s. You just don't see too many good bullies around anymore . . .

I first started researching Dutchies when looking at getting another GSD. We wanted a working line due to the gene pool being a bit healthier. The show-line dogs, I think most will agree, have been ruined (though they do have magnificent heads).

What I found was that a lot of show-line breeders - arguably the very people who have ruined the black-and-gold shepherd - were now getting into working lines, breeding ever bigger dogs. A German shepherd is not supposed to be a 50+kg behemoth - it's not the standard and impedes its working ability. The heavy bone comes from the east German lines, which were bred ostensibly as guard/border protection dogs, not alround working dogs.

I'm certainly no expert, but I get the idea a lot of dog breeders don't really know what they're doing. At least, they're not sure what sort of outcome they're trying to achieve. It seems to change with the times. Which is why the standard is there to begin with.

So what will happen? Will the eastern-bloc working lines improve the show-line german sheperds in terms of health and temperament? Or will the show crowd ruin another good dog?

The Dutch shepherd is interesting because, unlike the German shepherd, there is the matter of pedigree providing somewhat of a barrier between the working lines and conformation lines. Call me an idealist, but what if things were to be kept the way they were with one exception: if a KNPV line DNA tested majority Dutchy, then it could be added to the FCI registry to bolster the gene pool. I believe this can already happen in Belgium, where the Dutch shepherd stud books have not been closed.

But, alas, I think I've gone off on a bit of a tangent from my original post. :D

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:33 am

BTW, I did find this thread which answers most of my questions. Fascinating reading, especially from the van Leeuwens: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulleti ... ding-8708/

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:23 am

Indi wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:59 am
TimL_168 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:17 am
I definitely see your point, and agree most of the way.
Regarding the "like a duck"part: I'll give a rudimentary example. Little Johnny has an 80 lb brindle dog with a long muzzle and pointy ears. Little Johnny thinks the dog is a dutch shepherd. In fact, the dog is a pit X GSD. Little Johnny's dog gets the coloration and maybe some mouthy-ness/drive from the pit, and gets the build from the GSD. So the dog doesn't act or look all together unlike a DS. And that's all good for Johnny...unless Johnny decides to breed his dog as a DS. At that point, the genetic toilet has been flushed. There's no telling what qualities the dogs ancestors are dumping into the gene pool. So, as you pointed out, registries are highly useful.
I completely agree with your analogy. All I would add is that they do have DNA testing these days, so perhaps the officiating bodies could get with the times and, if someone wanted to register a paperless dog and was prepared to have their dog's DNA matched against the known breed, then there could be some leeway?

That would address two issues: confirmation of heritage (if not exact bloodline) and expanding the gene pool.

As it is, forging of pedigree papers has been a known issue with all breeds down the ages, while artificial insemination can introduce another element of doubt.
TimL wrote:With regards to the character of modern KNPV dogs vs old farm dogs, I'm not qualified in any way to speculate. I can say this, though; I've spent a good bit of time on my extended family's farm. The best, most useful dogs there were hard headed, "you're cool but I hate everybody else" herders. They don't treat their farm dogs a pets.
All herders are stubborn from what I've seen. They have to be, as they need that independent streak and problem-solving skills to work unsupervised. That's one of the Dutch shepherd traits I admire.
None of my herding dogs especially my Dutchies have been stubborn! I’m trained and competed in ipo with several Gsd’s and malinois and now I’m on my second and third Dutchie and they are by far the least stubborn dogs I’ve trained! Yoda is the most compliant fun dog I’ve ever worked with for the sport

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:13 pm

Haha! Well the one I've got is stubborn. Though she's certainly compliant when it comes to food! She reminds me of a cross between a bull terrier and a German shepherd. I think she's been used to getting her own way with the old owner, so she stands there and thinks for minute "What's in it for me?" before deciding what to do. It's early days, though, and she's no doubt very smart, picking things up quickly when she wants to. My bullies were all the same: independent thinkers, but lots of fun. Bullies are real clowns - only way to describe them.

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tennessee3 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:59 pm

I don't own or in general want to own a KNPV or NKBV dog, I've found most of them to be too over the top for my taste/situation.

But I'm also at the same time a huge fan, coming from the GSD side I firmly believe a working dog should be able to WORK! If it can't then it should never be bred no matter how pretty it is. And don't even get me started on the frog dogs ( a 24in whither dog's ass should not be 4 inches from the ground :soap:).

Because of that I look at things the old way, things are far too tied up in appearances & egos. By the old way I mean I have this test: Does the dog look the way it's suppossed to? Does it act the way it's suppossed to? Is it capable of doing the work its suppossed to? Is it healthy & sound and are it's parents?

If you answer yes to all those questions, Are we really going to pretend the founders of the breed wouldn't add it to the books?

The fact that there's people in charge who think this way and still let you back your way in to the registry in certain situations is why the Dutch Shepherd looks like this:
1890 1947 Today
ImageImage Image

and the GSD looks like this:

Image

Image

Cpt. Stephanitz is rolling over in his grave :evil:
Nicholas

Millie WLGSD in training for Schutzhund 5/27/17 & Grendel KNPV lines Malinois same + PP work 2/15/18

...... Mals are tan dutchies, right?

https://www.instagram.com/nick_millie_and_grendel/

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:51 am

Image

Czech lines appear to be closest to the original breed these days. Not easy to find lines that haven't been mixed with DDR and other lines though.

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Location: central MD

Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by TimL_168 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am

Indi wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:51 am
Image

Czech lines appear to be closest to the original breed these days. Not easy to find lines that haven't been mixed with DDR and other lines though.
There's a lady not to far away that's breeding a working Czech line to American show lines. I was curious what her goal was. They only reply I ever got was to fill out the puppy questionnaire...
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:22 pm

TimL_168 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am
Indi wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:51 am
Image

Czech lines appear to be closest to the original breed these days. Not easy to find lines that haven't been mixed with DDR and other lines though.
There's a lady not to far away that's breeding a working Czech line to American show lines. I was curious what her goal was. They only reply I ever got was to fill out the puppy questionnaire...
She’s making fear aggressive nervebags

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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tennessee3 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:03 pm

I like the czech lines alot and love the Czech heavy czech x ddr lines, they're really nicely driven proportioned and mentally balanced dogs.

I didn't intend to imply their aren't any good GSDs because I know several great breeders just within an hour or two of my house (train with one of them and she's putting out killer Czech x DDR & Czech x WGWL dogs) and I've got a great pup myself who's mostly Czech and WGWL with a healthy dose of DDR on her sire's side and ASL on her dams side. And she's flat backed with drive for days and too smart for her own good at times LOL.

You've already discussed the multiple open book periods that were necessary to save the breed and the implications of that. So I was just making the point that NKBV & KNPV dogs are IMO basically traditional northern European Shepherds like in the old days before the breed standards came about and later became so rigidly fixed. And I was using the GSD as an example of how going to the other extreme with obsession with purity of lines etc is a terrible direction to go in.
Nicholas

Millie WLGSD in training for Schutzhund 5/27/17 & Grendel KNPV lines Malinois same + PP work 2/15/18

...... Mals are tan dutchies, right?

https://www.instagram.com/nick_millie_and_grendel/

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