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DS bitch earned PHI

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
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bayca
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DS bitch earned PHI

Post by bayca » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Cindy-Desie v Treekzicht earned PHI with 403 last saturday

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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by Christie M » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:55 pm

Congratulations!! That is very exciting. I love to see females titled!!!!
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:00 pm

"Treekzicht." So that is FCI papered. Who is she out of? :D
ImageJudith Van Neerland Dutch Shepherds Image

bayca
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by bayca » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:38 pm

vneerland wrote:"Treekzicht." So that is FCI papered. Who is she out of? :D
father is Avanstien

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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by icvanstra » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Congrats!!
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:31 pm

Christie M wrote:Congratulations!! That is very exciting. I love to see females titled!!!!
Me too, although there is often little reason why they wouldn't, the girls are still less popular in many venues.
For that reason, I am extra proud that my exported Kwinny x Rico daughter "Josjevan Neerland" passed her KNPV Objectguard title. This time, her real owner was the handler. The real owner being a 16 year old daughter of a friend of mine. Due to age restrictions, (you have to be 16 to be a KNPV member with full trialing rights) her father titled the same bitch in PH 1 and PH 2 already, but now that the daughter was old enough, it was finally her turn.
Congratulations to Marleen and Josje. 8-)
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by Christie M » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:41 pm

vneerland wrote:
Christie M wrote:Congratulations!! That is very exciting. I love to see females titled!!!!
Me too, although there is often little reason why they wouldn't, the girls are still less popular in many venues.
For that reason, I am extra proud that my exported Kwinny x Rico daughter "Josjevan Neerland" passed her KNPV Objectguard title. This time, her real owner was the handler. The real owner being a 16 year old daughter of a friend of mine. Due to age restrictions, (you have to be 16 to be a KNPV member with full trialing rights) her father titled the same bitch in PH 1 and PH 2 already, but now that the daughter was old enough, it was finally her turn.
Congratulations to Marleen and Josje. 8-)
THAT IS AWESOME!!! Congrats to both dog AND especially owner/handler. A PH2 bitch?? Tell me more Judith. How many females do you think title in a year? What percentage of dogs would you guess?

I don't know why I'm so biased. I prefer working females, but I don't know if its because I enjoy them in particular, or because I think they are severely neglected in the dog sports. Nothing irritates me more in a litter announcement than "Sire is Fido, Sch3, FR3, blah, blah and dam is out of 'insert male name here.' "
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:39 pm

To tell you the truth, I am not sure about % of titled bitches in KNPV. It used to feel (since I was typing most of the certificates at the time) that is was <10%. I am not sure what the reason is. I doubt it is only because the girls are deemed 'softer'. That sure happens, of course, and another gripe I have heard time and time again is the heats scr#wing the owners up a few times a year, and inevitably at trial time as well. :roll: That can't be all of it though. I suspect male ego also plays a role in it. Can't be seen with a 'girl' defending you as a big macho handler? :twisted: A good working bitch though, is worth her weight in gold to me. No hidden agenda's. No need to mark the entire world and be cocky for just getting out fo the car. Just focussed on the job at hand instead. Yeah. I love my girls. 8-)
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by leih merigian » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:32 pm

This topic of why not more working/titled females came up on another board I'm on. The concensus there seems to be that good breeders can tell a good working female without having to title her, and if she's that good, she belongs in the whelping box, passing on the genes, not on the field.

To me, that is awfully reminiscent of the human corollary of keep 'em barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

I prefer females. I think a lot of it is that macho ego thing :lol: .
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:34 pm

leih merigian wrote:This topic of why not more working/titled females came up on another board I'm on. The concensus there seems to be that good breeders can tell a good working female without having to title her, and if she's that good, she belongs in the whelping box, passing on the genes, not on the field.
Yes, I am sure that a good breeder can tell a good bitch, titles or not. And I will admit that I did not breed Yaska until she was 6! I was too busy working her before that, and giving them maternity leave just doesn't always work.
The same goes for my (privately owned) girls who went on to become K9's. You really can't tell the Sheriffs Office that 'officer Jade/Kwinny' will not be coming to work on for the next 6 weeks, due to maternity leave. :roll: So your best females could end up outside that genepool. But to leave the good ones stuck in the whelping boxes? No, that does not sound right to me either. :? I prefer a compromise, but it will indeed take management to get everything just like you like it, when males would be a lot more straightforward in that aspect.
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by k9katet » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:51 pm

I prefer training girls. They just seem sassier. I like that. Vada is always pushing me. The boys don't push. They just accept what I teach them.
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by Christie M » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:19 am

leih merigian wrote:This topic of why not more working/titled females came up on another board I'm on. The concensus there seems to be that good breeders can tell a good working female without having to title her, and if she's that good, she belongs in the whelping box, passing on the genes, not on the field.

To me, that is awfully reminiscent of the human corollary of keep 'em barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

I prefer females. I think a lot of it is that macho ego thing :lol: .
But by that philosophy, a good breeder should know a good male too. But the only way for the rest of us to know is to test and prove them. I think that "training" a dog to compete is very different than "testing" them. So many people say that this dog "could" do this, or that. But no one knows until the stress of daily training and stepping foot on the competition field.

Personally, I think allot of it just comes down to laziness. It IS work to work around a female's cycles. And if you have to prove BOTH parents, then that's twice as much work. Way easier to only prove 50% of the equation. But for me, a female brings more than 50% to the table. She brings half the genetics and the first 5-7 weeks of interaction and imprinting.
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http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by leih merigian » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:07 pm

Christie M wrote:But by that philosophy, a good breeder should know a good male too. But the only way for the rest of us to know is to test and prove them. I think that "training" a dog to compete is very different than "testing" them. So many people say that this dog "could" do this, or that. But no one knows until the stress of daily training and stepping foot on the competition field.

Personally, I think allot of it just comes down to laziness. It IS work to work around a female's cycles. And if you have to prove BOTH parents, then that's twice as much work. Way easier to only prove 50% of the equation. But for me, a female brings more than 50% to the table. She brings half the genetics and the first 5-7 weeks of interaction and imprinting.
I don't disagree with you, Christie. I was just reporting what others were saying about the topic. Me, I'm ignorant of breeding practices, beyond what I read here and there :) .

I've also read of late the claim that the female contributes more to the litter than the male. I am wondering how others feel/think about this, and whether it is simply a matter of the mothering/nurturing, if people agree, or if it's something more?

I would also guess that whether or not a particular dog (stud or bitch) throws its own traits successfully has nothing to do with the dog's sex? Or, do you experienced breeders have another idea about this?

Just curious...
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:09 pm

leih merigian wrote: I've also read of late the claim that the female contributes more to the litter than the male. I am wondering how others feel/think about this, and whether it is simply a matter of the mothering/nurturing, if people agree, or if it's something more?
Really, unless you want to start nitpicking, genetically the division between male and female input in a breeding is about 50%. Maybe a smidge more input from the female towards her male offspring, because her X chomosome is bigger than the males Y chomosome. Female pups are x/x evenly balanced, males as x/y a trifle less so.
I think the theories that the bitch has a greater influence, stems from the fact that she is directly responsible for the development of the embrios and the raising in the first couple of weeks. Her hormomes do play a role there, but I do not know of any studies that measure that input. Obviously, a dominant bitch would tend to raise more dominant babies, and a shy scared specimen would probably transfer that behavior too. But if one is talking about input of genetic material, it's a mostly almost even split.
I would also guess that whether or not a particular dog (stud or bitch) throws its own traits successfully has nothing to do with the dog's sex? Or, do you experienced breeders have another idea about this?
Depends on the traits. :cry: The least known and also the least studied field in genetics, is the behavioral part.
In general, the best chance for reproducing traits, is to select not only from a specimen that possesses those traits, but also has siblings/littermates that do. The family average, if you will. However. Two great dogs (out of good families) do not always make great pups. For some (yet) unkonwn reason, lines will have to 'klick' too. I will never forget a litter out of our dog, bred at and for the DoD.(department of defense) They were awesome. So the repeat breeding was done with a full sister to that first dam. Awesome again. Yet that same dogs first litter at the DoD was barely okay. :? Even if you match a stud up to solid females out of proven families, that does not always guarantee that you get what you hope for. I am sure all breeders would WISH it were that way! :D
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by leih merigian » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:03 pm

vneerland wrote: Really, unless you want to start nitpicking, genetically the division between male and female input in a breeding is about 50%.
That's what I would've thought, but I can see where the females hormones during gestation and then the early raising would make some difference, depending on her temperament.

I feel for you breeders! It's such a complicated thing, and as you say, two great dogs don't necessarily end up producing equally great offspring.

Thanks for all the info, Judith!
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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by syzygy » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:22 am

I am not a breeder but there has been the argument in psychology for many years of "nature vs nurture." I can be convinced easily that the pups will learn a tremendous amount from Mom--look at the problems a pup separated too early from Mom and/or siblings can have, and how important many breeders think giving that pup at least 14 weeks (!) with the mother can be in the future socialization of the pup. Dogs have to learn how to be dogs--somewhere. So, that's Mom's job--and the siblings.' If Mom is scared of her shadow, the pups learn to be afraid, too. If Mom is courageous, the pups are secure and learn confidence. Etc. I would think a good, stable, strong dam would have tremendous influence on the puppies. I think the actual genetics, which, as Judith pointed out, is a very complex, multi-genetic and often unpredictable thing, is close to impossible to depend upon with any certainty. In that case I think the repetiton of what has worked in the past is the best course and just avoid the traits that tend to be genetically linked like excessive shyness or health issues.

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Re: DS bitch earned PHI

Post by vneerland » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:29 am

syzygy wrote:I am not a breeder but there has been the argument in psychology for many years of "nature vs nurture." I can be convinced easily that the pups will learn a tremendous amount from Mom--look at the problems a pup separated too early from Mom and/or siblings can have, and how important many breeders think giving that pup at least 14 weeks (!) with the mother can be in the future socialization of the pup. Dogs have to learn how to be dogs--somewhere. So, that's Mom's job--and the siblings.'
There is a theory that I do not subscribe to! KNPV dogs rank among the toughest dogs in the world. And it is common practice to let the pups leave for their new lives as early as 5 or 6 weeks Anthing still left with the dam at 14 weeks is becoming hard to place at the other side of the pond: Must be something wrong with it. :roll: New owners are very equipped to teach and socialize a pup. They can take pups out in public places and expose them to thing that the dam has no access to. :lol: Sure, some of the KNVP dogs make pretty ill adjusted adults, but I would not dare to make the claim that that was because of some early childhood experience. Maybe it was the track of (often brutal) training that tipped the congeniality scale. So yes, a dam has input. But she really does not have to be the one to do (all) the raising on anything older than let's say 4 weeks. After weaning, people can take over successfully. :D
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