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Blues

General "standards" discussion not specifically related to the coat variety
GSDNanny
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Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:45 pm

Judith, if you would be so kind to explain more on the genetics of the Blues, I would be so appreciative. Ive seen of late where the blues are becoming a fad thus being bred purposely so I am just wondering about the dilution, etc. The only other Blues I have come across were in Dobermans and GSDs and they were a genetic mess, lots of health issues, ie skin, diet, immune system, etc. Can you enlighten me more on the 'blue' DS, dear?

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Kristie E
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Re: Blues

Post by Kristie E » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:47 am

ugh.. don't tell me they are doing this to DS too?? Izar is a blue Dane and he loses his hair... then grows it back ..loses it...grows it back.. vet said it was because BOth of his parents were blue..
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GSDNanny
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Tell us about yourself: Dogs are my life, what can I say. GSDs primarily for nearly 50 years til bringing in my first DutchShep about 4 years ago. GSD rescue for 9 yrs, nearly 200 thru my home, rehabbed, adopted out. Been involved in AKC ob, herding, tracking, agility; Schutzhund-DVG; scent detection (HR-water)&narcotics, some patrol work. Mostly herding training at present on my little farm.

Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:59 pm

I also know someone who has a blue Chihuahua and same thing. Im not out to downgrade the concept just seiously want to know the alleles, etc. as I am learning and I know that Judith and a few others are so knowledgeable. Evidently there is something in the DS that eliminates these bad health traits from what I have been reading and that is why I am curious as to the difference.

Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew

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Re: Blues

Post by Christie M » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:34 pm

I don't know that there is anything in the genetics that eliminates issues associated with the color dilution. I just don't know that it has been extensively inbred to the point of creating issues. I don't think its the "color" in other breeds that is the problem. Its how people went about consistently producing that color that doubled up on hereditary issues.

Fortunately, to my knowledge the majority of dogs here in the US have been bred based on function - with form being required to maintain functionality. However, I would think that if people start specifically selecting for blue, breeding too close and ignore the workability....I would expect things to go downhill very quickly.

I know Judith has explained it in detail before. Can't wait to read it again!
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GSDNanny
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Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:19 pm

Christie - I was trying to find the thread where Judith talked about it but couldnt. Because I would hate to ask her to repeat. I saw several where she talked about DS with Mal.....but I didnt see anything on blues. Just curious.

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Re: Blues

Post by syzygy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:40 am

Just FYI blue dilution alopecia (or more accurately, CDA--color dilution alopecia--since fawns are also affected) is not common to all breeds, and there seems to be an extra factor or factors involved in those breeds such as Dobermans that manifest the dramatic skin problems associated with the dd gene. Some breeds such as Weimeraners, who are 100% dd, have no reported incidence of CDA at all. Over half--as many as 80%--of dilute Dobes are affected, but only about 7% of dd Italian Greyhounds. Incidence varies widely. There is a gene now called dl proposed as a possible third dilution allele that may be causal in the dogs with CDA. As yet unproven, it would explain a lot. A dd dog would be a normal dilute, ddl would be a mildly-affected, and dldl would be a CDA-affected dog. However, even if alopecia is not present, the way the melanin is clumped in the hair shaft of a dd dog instead of rather evenly distributed along the shaft can contribute to slightly more fragile hair, which can break off more easily than the fully-pigmented Dd or DD dog. There may be a bit more skin sensitivity, too, but according to all the research I have read, the jury is still out on that one. The presence of big clumps (macromelanosomes) can cause hair breakage below the surface of the skin, affecting and even killing the follicles, and in dogs such as Dobermans with the predispositon for staph infections, it is likely this is what contributes to the skin problems sometimes associated with alopecia.

BTW I *love* the blues myself.

Ellisa
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Re: Blues

Post by Christie M » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:50 pm

syzygy wrote:Just FYI blue dilution alopecia (or more accurately, CDA--color dilution alopecia--since fawns are also affected) is not common to all breeds, and there seems to be an extra factor or factors involved in those breeds such as Dobermans that manifest the dramatic skin problems associated with the dd gene. Some breeds such as Weimeraners, who are 100% dd, have no reported incidence of CDA at all. Over half--as many as 80%--of dilute Dobes are affected, but only about 7% of dd Italian Greyhounds. Incidence varies widely. There is a gene now called dl proposed as a possible third dilution allele that may be causal in the dogs with CDA. As yet unproven, it would explain a lot. A dd dog would be a normal dilute, ddl would be a mildly-affected, and dldl would be a CDA-affected dog. However, even if alopecia is not present, the way the melanin is clumped in the hair shaft of a dd dog instead of rather evenly distributed along the shaft can contribute to slightly more fragile hair, which can break off more easily than the fully-pigmented Dd or DD dog. There may be a bit more skin sensitivity, too, but according to all the research I have read, the jury is still out on that one. The presence of big clumps (macromelanosomes) can cause hair breakage below the surface of the skin, affecting and even killing the follicles, and in dogs such as Dobermans with the predispositon for staph infections, it is likely this is what contributes to the skin problems sometimes associated with alopecia.

BTW I *love* the blues myself.

Ellisa

Thank you so much for posting this! I am wrong - its not just the inbreeding that caused the problems. The problems can lie in the color itself!! Very cool info and I take back my previous post :oops:
Christie Meyer
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http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
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Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

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Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:32 pm

Ellisa, thank you so very much. That is the explanation that I was looking for and in layman's terms as well. So, it would be correct to assume that the blue DSs are dd. Also, at this point with the early onset of the blue DS to the scene, it has not become so overly in-bred that the CDA factors are not prevalent yet. Did that make sense? Or maybe in the DS it never will become a problem as seen in some breeds. I have not seen one yet personally but recently saw a brand new litter posted online in Holland, part of which are blues. That is what got me curious. So thanx again.

Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew

Livin' in the deep south - Louisiana

GSDNanny
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Tell us about yourself: Dogs are my life, what can I say. GSDs primarily for nearly 50 years til bringing in my first DutchShep about 4 years ago. GSD rescue for 9 yrs, nearly 200 thru my home, rehabbed, adopted out. Been involved in AKC ob, herding, tracking, agility; Schutzhund-DVG; scent detection (HR-water)&narcotics, some patrol work. Mostly herding training at present on my little farm.

Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:34 pm

Silly, but everytime I hear of a 'blue' dog, I cant help but here in my mind the song by Burl Ives, "Lavender blue dilly-dilly....."!!!! Way before most of your times. :dsrazz:

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Re: Blues

Post by leih merigian » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:29 pm

I've always loved that song!
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Re: Blues

Post by syzygy » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:55 pm

Hi!

Yep all blue DS's are dd. It's a recessive and can lurk in there, hidden, for generations. My own Ishi's Momma was a blue and Ishi had some blues in her litter. She carries blue, of course--she's Dd. I really love their looks.

No need to be embarrassed, anyone--it's a complex subject, actually, and there is a lot of research yet to be done before we know anything for certain. Inbreeding could indeed have something to do with the affecteds if the "dl" allele theory is correct. The dl allele could get doubled up without knowledge if a ddl is only mildly affected--double up on a ddl Mom and Dad and *bang!* you get a dldl and CDA. SOMETHING established it in Dobermans and other really seriously-affected breeds.

BTW there really is such thing as a lavender! (not in DS but in cats and some dog breeds--I think the Ratties call it "pearl" and many Weims are ddbb.) It's a combination of two dilutes--the d blue dilute and the b brown (chocolate) dilute. :luff:

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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:39 am

Blue and brown are modifiers that change the black expression to something else. In this case, a Dutch shepherd can display all the black parts as gray aka blue. (and Labradors can display the blacks as a cholate brown) But lavender, the merger of blue and brown, can NOT happen in DSs :)
While a blue is little d little d (dd), all Dutch shepherds have big B big B (BB) on the allele for brown. (anyone ever seen a DS in chocolate? Nope, me neither) Therefore, it cannot happen that you would get a little b little b (bb) Dutch shepherd (that would look vaguely like a chocolate labrador color in brindle) and subsequently, it is impossible to get a lavender (which is little d little d, little b little b = ddbb) ddbb is the most popular coloring in the Weimaraners and it is popular in Pitbulls too.
As for coat problems in blue DS's. There are not quite enough of them to be be sure either way.
But it is known that the CDA hair thinning happens on the eumelanin (black) parts of the coat and not on the phaeomelanin parts (the gold) While all colors get dilluted in a dd (D stands for dillute, go figure) the problems arise in the black parts. Dobes and danes have a lot more (area) that is supposed to be black, where as the DS has it black in stripes, and not all over. I don't think problems are merely related to inbreeding, but inbreeding will indeed increase the chance of picking up whatever defect that is associated with the CDA.
I have blues, and while I do not breed for them, I refuse to 'bucket' them when they happen. They are cool looking dogs with a loyal following. They should never win a show over a solid colored DS, due to the fact that the eyes will be amber, and not dark (like the standard wants them to be) and the nose will be navy blue, not black (like the standard wants them to be) but when your goal is to produce working dogs, there is no reason to panic at the sight of a blue I am pretty sure they can save lives, just like their dark counterparts.
BTW. The official breed standard does not forbid them. Blue is mentioned as permitted in the rough coat. Not in the short of long hairs, but it is not a disqualification either.

Funny tidbit. Blue pups are not born (looking) brindle! The stripes do not show until they are a few weeks old. Until then they truly look solid colored. :o
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Re: Blues

Post by syzygy » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:32 am

>>Blue and brown are modifiers that change the black expression to something else. In this case, a Dutch shepherd can display all the black parts as gray aka blue. (and Labradors can display the blacks as a cholate brown) But lavender, the merger of blue and brown, can NOT happen in DSs :)<<

Yep, I said that in the last post--"not in DS but in cats and some dog breeds." In the cat fancy the color is actually called lavender.

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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:50 pm

syzygy wrote:Yep, I said that in the last post--"not in DS but in cats and some dog breeds."
I know you said that. I was trying to add to it and be more in depth about it. :roll:
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Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:56 pm

BINGO! Judith, you and Ellisa did a kick-butt job on explaining this. And I 'actually' understand it all!! I find it all fascinating and am trying to learn all that I can about canine genetics even though I dont plan on doing any breeding. (I took a genetics class in my college nursing many moons ago).

So the blue newborn pups dont show brindle at first? But you know when they are born that they are blue, right? They evidently look sable at first maybe?

Like I said, I have not seen any photos of a blue adult, only the young pups online so hopefully will see one at some point. Do you have any pics to post or know of any? Just all curiosity on my part.

Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this. So interesting.

Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew

Livin' in the deep south - Louisiana

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Tell us about yourself: Dogs are my life, what can I say. GSDs primarily for nearly 50 years til bringing in my first DutchShep about 4 years ago. GSD rescue for 9 yrs, nearly 200 thru my home, rehabbed, adopted out. Been involved in AKC ob, herding, tracking, agility; Schutzhund-DVG; scent detection (HR-water)&narcotics, some patrol work. Mostly herding training at present on my little farm.

Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:01 pm

On the chocolate DS....you are saying the choc would be the golden part, right with black stripes? A friend supposedly has a choc DS from a breeder on the east coast. I will try to get pictures of the dog to send. I have not seen the dog personally.

Oh and glad you dont bucket those blue babies!!!

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Re: Blues

Post by alspyce » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:14 pm

And then there are the Yorkies who are born black & tan and change (hopefully) into that beautiful gunmetal blue later. (Just to stir the blue pot a little more. ) :g_wink:
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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:40 pm

GSDNanny wrote:So the blue newborn pups dont show brindle at first? But you know when they are born that they are blue, right? They evidently look sable at first maybe?
They look solid blue (gray). 8-)
GSDNanny wrote:On the chocolate DS....you are saying the choc would be the golden part, right with black stripes? A friend supposedly has a choc DS from a breeder on the east coast. I will try to get pictures of the dog to send. I have not seen the dog personally.
Nope. The black parts would turn chocolate. (and the golden parts will look washed out gold)
If your friends dogs is a DS, then he would have to be a rich gold (maybe dark like chocolate) with black, not a chocolate with gold. Only the latter would be a 'chocolate" (genetically) but that would exclude it from being a DS, since that particular modifier is not present in our breed.

@Elllisa. Besides pit bulls, what other breeds would sport chocolate brindles? :?
alspyce wrote:And then there are the Yorkies who are born black & tan and change (hopefully) into that beautiful gunmetal blue later. (Just to stir the blue pot a little more. ) :g_wink:
Born black and tan will not make a (genetic) blue later in life. ;) The rough coated DS is called 'blue' too, but they are a version of salt and pepper graying that make them look blue. Eyes and nose leather are dark though, and it is mostly NOT a dillute like blue, even if some breeds label is as such.
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GSDNanny
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Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:06 pm

Judith says:
Nope. The black parts would turn chocolate. (and the golden parts will look washed out gold)
If your friends dogs is a DS, then he would have to be a rich gold (maybe dark like chocolate) with black, not a chocolate with gold. Only the latter would be a 'chocolate" (genetically) but that would exclude it from being a DS, since that particular modifier is not present in our breed.

I asked her more about this dog and she said that the striping is a very dark brown, and the gold areas are dark carmel colored. She no longer has the dog, it is working at a prison now.

Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew

Livin' in the deep south - Louisiana

GSDNanny
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Tell us about yourself: Dogs are my life, what can I say. GSDs primarily for nearly 50 years til bringing in my first DutchShep about 4 years ago. GSD rescue for 9 yrs, nearly 200 thru my home, rehabbed, adopted out. Been involved in AKC ob, herding, tracking, agility; Schutzhund-DVG; scent detection (HR-water)&narcotics, some patrol work. Mostly herding training at present on my little farm.

Re: Blues

Post by GSDNanny » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:25 pm

So now that my curiosity is way up, I am going to search some blue dog photos. I'd love to meet one personally one day.

Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew

Livin' in the deep south - Louisiana

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