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Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:36 am
by Christie M
I was taught that Dutch Shepherds (short haired, anyway) come in 2 colors - gold brindle and silver brindle, with the silvers possibly not really existing.

In other breeds, when the tan is more predominant than the black, they call it reverse brindle. In French Bulldogs, this is an accepted and used term. Is it technically correct to use it in Dutch Shepherds to describe a dog like Ziva?

Also, ideally should the "Mask" extend all the way up the face beyond the eyes?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:28 pm
by k9katet
Great questions that I've wondered about too. Looking forward to hearing the answers.

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:50 pm
by alspyce
When the base color is Tan, with the black causing the brindle stripes, I always assumed that "Reverse Brindle" would be the dogs who are very dark with the Tan appearing to be causing the stripped effect. (I think also sometimes called "Black Brindle.")
Where's Judith/Marjolein for this one?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:45 pm
by vneerland
Christie M wrote:I was taught that Dutch Shepherds (short haired, anyway) come in 2 colors - gold brindle and silver brindle, with the silvers possibly not really existing.
I like the 'possibly' not existing. I am convinced that it (genetically) does not exist. But the breed standard mentions it, so........ Silver brindle does not exist, genetically, but it is used, erroneously.
In other breeds, when the tan is more predominant than the black, they call it reverse brindle. In French Bulldogs, this is an accepted and used term. Is it technically correct to use it in Dutch Shepherds to describe a dog like Ziva?
Also, ideally should the "Mask" extend all the way up the face beyond the eyes?
It is a bit like what I said about silver brindle above. It may be an accepted term, but that does not make it correct. Reverse brindle would describe the appearance of a dog that is different from the norm (in that breed) I have heard it used to describe black dogs with what appears to be tan striping. And you say that in french bulldogs, it describes a dog that is tan with black stripes.
In DS's the norm (the ideal) would be a golden dog with a black stripe. Ziva fits that norm.
If there were such a thing, then a reversed brindle in the DS, would be a black looking dog with a tan looking stripe. But there is no such a thing. Reversed brindle is a label of (sorry!) ignorance. :oops: Genetically, brindle is, in all breeds, an expression of the K (black) locus. The stripes on any brindle dog, regardless of breed, regardless of appearance, are dark (read: black) and not tan. The tan parts are just the underlying locus (Agouti) showing through. While some breeds use that terminology, our breed is not one of them, and I personally don't think it would be advisable to start a trend that leads the non educated reader to believe that they are looking at something different than the other brindle expressions (dark vs light, light vs dark) It is simply the width of the dark (black) stripe that changes the appearance, but they are still black stripes on a tan background, with a wider stripe leaving less tan to show than a narrow one.

Mask is the appearance of black on the head. Genetically, a mask can be as little as black hair around the lips, and as much as black spreading all the way above the eyes. There are few gold brindle DS's that show a very large mask and while the full dark head is pretty, it is not an consideration when it comes to evaluation in the show ring. Prensence of a mask is preferred and in my personal opinion, more is more, but full extending masks on a golden brindle dog (like Ziva) are fairly rare.

Maybe Marjolein has some mask-expression pictures of us to look at. 8-)

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:10 pm
by Christie M
Thank you so much Judith!!

I remember the conversation about silver brindle, but I couldn't remember the specifics.

I like the way you break it down. Lets use terms that fit the genetics of what is actually going on. I appreciate the explanation!!

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:11 pm
by Marjolein
hmm, masks, personally I do not have a lot of mask pics...

I think in masks the major fault is for people, even judges, to not look close enough.
Look at these 2 beasts, Ivil and Dingo:

Image
who has more mask?












well?












Ivil!


nope, Ivil is darker overall, Dingo has less brindle, so appears to have less of a mask. In fact Ivil has a small mask that barely reaches to halfway her snouth, as you can see in this pic:

Image

another typical mask:
Image
Amber

LH DS without mask:
Image


On "reversed brindle"
Image
2 different shades of brindle to compare, Ivil (in the back) has way more brindle than Dingo (foreground), so Ivil will look darker. To some this translates into a black dog with brown stripes, which is like Judith explained not the case.

Re: Another Question

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:33 pm
by susanna
May be a little foolish question,but why like my dog there are registered dogs for colour "brindle".
When there are gold and silver brindle dogs, so what makes the dog just term "brindle".?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:48 pm
by Sugars Mom
I would think the label brindle covers both....

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:52 am
by Dutchringgirl
I love the pictures of Lvil and Dingo, Thalie and Sadie are opposites, Thalie is like Lvil, a darker brindle and Sadie Is lighter. Isnt the Lighter brindle a Red Brindle?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:33 am
by Christie M
susanna wrote:May be a little foolish question,but why like my dog there are registered dogs for colour "brindle".
When there are gold and silver brindle dogs, so what makes the dog just term "brindle".?
What registry?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:10 pm
by johninny
hesitant to answer for someone else, but probably local license. every local government agency [and vet] i have run into here uses ''brindle'' for a color description in their REGISTRATION records. so probably nothing ''official'' in our dog world.
Susanna, is that a correct interpretation of the situation?

Re: Another Question

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:25 am
by susanna
Thanx, the guestion pops up cause theres "gold brindle" and so on within puppies parents.

Even so,think my dog belongs "gold brindle" category, but now I know answer to this also. :)

Re: Another Question

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:13 pm
by JollyRoger
Regarding silver brindle and whether or not it exists....would Marjolein's pic of the long haired dutch not be considered silver? Compared to the others which are much darker gold or rust colored it seems very silver.


Oops, just realized this thread was 2 years old. Sorry about that!

Re: Another Question

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:28 am
by Mark77
My dog Asia has a very light brindle coloring, almost red like with tons of stripes. Riddick is very dark brindle, has longer fur and fuzzy babboo ears- which is his single greatest feature.