Aggression or Fear?

[alspyce]

This is rather long, but about half way through you finally get to see the dog (GSD). Supposedly a real bad-ass.

What I see is dog who is very insecure, scared, and trying his best to avoid confrontation. Makes me wonder how many dogs bite for the same reason?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZsaEF30 ... AAAAAAAGAA

[Lauren]

Me too. I saw absolutely no aggression there, just terror. Now I am not saying that fear could not lead to a bite, but he didn't even pull his lips forward. I hope that they are able to continue to work toward him being a service dog!

[vneerland]

Have not seen the clip (yet) but there are so many misconceptions about what constitutes a good bite/protection dog. Fear is always the wrong motivator, but when I thought about it the other day, I realized that that may be something the general public does not know? Call a breeder and say you are looking for a future protection dog and they may send you the snappiest pup in the litter. How are they (general public) supposed to know that you need a balanced animal? One that is confident, not defensive? I bet many breeders don't even have a clue. "Sharper" is better to them. The confident dog that does not run the fence all day long must not be as good a dog as the dog that lies in the yard, observes and gets up when someone comes into the yard?
Sad, super sad, but many are still stuck in the 1980's mentality that you need to raise a future protection dog by not letting him around anyone else but his/her own family. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Just a quick remark about the subject line of this topic. Dogs can show both. That bad thing called fear aggression/classic defense.

[Dutchringgirl]

ive seen this clip before, beautiful dog. The dog is terrified and insecure, maybe he was beaten?

Thalie will sleep all day, runs around biking with me, is great with everyone (Therapy dog) and all other dogs, but when its time to protect and bite, she is right there. How dangerous would that be to sell someone an insecure dog that is snappy as a protection dog. Someone is going to get hurt. Im sure its happened plenty.

[Drizlaru]

Most people can't handle a real PPD, nor do they need one. Alot of the PPD vendors out there sell dogs for tens of thousands of dollars that have great ob, and can bite a sleeve. Put them in a real situation and they go into flight mode.

That poor shepherd was fearful, plain and simple.

[alspyce]

[quote="vneerland"]Have not seen the clip (yet) but there are so many misconceptions about what constitutes a good bite/protection dog. Fear is always the wrong motivator, but when I thought about it the other day, I realized that that may be something the general public does not know? Call a breeder and say you are looking for a future protection dog and they may send you the snappiest pup in the litter. How are they (general public) supposed to know that you need a balanced animal? One that is confident, not defensive? I bet many breeders don't even have a clue. "Sharper" is better to them. The confident dog that does not run the fence all day long must not be as good a dog as the dog that lies in the yard, observes and gets up when someone comes into the yard?
quote]

Judith, without even seeing the clip, you perfectly nailed what I was hoping people would figure out.
I am fearful that lots of the DS breeders here are so focused just on the aggression/ defense aspects, that our DS may soon be in real trouble. Good temperament should show confidence, not aggression, and certainly not submission/avoidance, like the poor dog in the clip. A dog of correct character should be able to work at whatever job is required.

[vneerland]

Most people can't handle a real PPD, nor do they need one. Alot of the PPD vendors out there sell dogs for tens of thousands of dollars that have great ob, and can bite a sleeve. Put them in a real situation and they go into flight mode.

True. Sell a real protection dog and you have to tell the new owner that they will need to learn to handle the dog and adopt a less casual style about their at home walk-ins. If a dog were automatically friendly to anyone and everyone, it would not be much of a protection dog. If a dog were snappy at everyone, it would be a liability and accident waiting to happen. It has to be a balance.

Judith, without even seeing the clip, you perfectly nailed what I was hoping people would figure out. I am fearful that lots of the DS breeders here are so focused just on the aggression/ defense aspects, that our DS may soon be in real trouble. Good temperament should show confidence, not aggression, and certainly not submission/avoidance, like the poor dog in the clip. A dog of correct character should be able to work at whatever job is required.

I am afraid it takes know how to be able to distinguish between what kind of aggression you see, and what kind can be needed/wanted for true protection/bite work. There is nothing wrong, IMO, with a selection program that focuses on dogs that can do a job that may include bite work. But yes, the main ingredient should be a balanced animal first. And a dog that is not confident should never be taught bite work.
I heard a friend of mine state, the other day, that there seem to be less and less balanced malinois out there. When bred for protection (sports) they often are over the top, reactive. I would not claim that herders should be friends with everybody, but they certainly should be able to be neutral especially on neutral ground. But it all starts with a breeder who may, or may not know what they are looking at, and chose the wrong traits as desirable, not hindered by any knowledge. Scary.

[Drizlaru]

I think it would be completely reasonable for the DS breeding experts here to start their own registry of known breeders with a good history, and practices that are a benefit to the breed. So that the breed can be preserved over time, and can weed out all the undesirables. Or at least keep a current list of DS breeders that are benefiting the breed. JMO

[Schlussdibusti]

I think it would be completely reasonable for the DS breeding experts here to start their own registry of known breeders with a good history, and practices that are a benefit to the breed. So that the breed can be preserved over time, and can weed out all the undesirables. Or at least keep a current list of DS breeders that are benefiting the breed. JMO

This might be difficult. Helmut Raiser who tried to bring the GSD back to healthy standards got fired from the German SV and had to create his own club. http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/de/index.html

[Drizlaru]

I think it would be completely reasonable for the DS breeding experts here to start their own registry of known breeders with a good history, and practices that are a benefit to the breed. So that the breed can be preserved over time, and can weed out all the undesirables. Or at least keep a current list of DS breeders that are benefiting the breed. JMO

This might be difficult. Helmut Raiser who tried to bring the GSD back to healthy standards got fired from the German SV and had to create his own club. http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/de/index.html

Who are the entities that currently set breed standard for the dutch shepherd? KNPV and FCI? Which are totally different standards. I think that a list of known breeders that breed for the betterment of the breed is completely reasonable. Could call it a registry, can call it whatever you like. Just because he was fired doesn't make him wrong, and good for him for going the extra mile.

Being a new pup owner, when I was researching potential breeders, it was like trying to find a needle in a haystack. There was no one place to go to get all the information I was looking for. Heck, just trying to find breeders of DS was a task. Why can't there be a list?

[Schlussdibusti]

May be it's a good thing that it is difficult to find a DS breeder. The owner should have the same "drive" as they expect from their dog.

[Drizlaru]

May be it's a good thing that it is difficult to find a DS breeder. The owner should have the same "drive" as they expect from their dog.

Good point. My only fear when selecting a new pup that is a new breed to me, that has to have a specific temperament and drive, is that I will get a pup that doesn't have that temperament or drive. Then I'm stuck with a pup I can't use for what I want. Doesn't mean I won't love him and take care of him for the rest of his life, but he would just be another pet and not the working dog I was looking for.

[vneerland]

Who are the entities that currently set breed standard for the dutch shepherd? KNPV and FCI? Which are totally different standards. I think that a list of known breeders that breed for the betterment of the breed is completely reasonable. Could call it a registry, can call it whatever you like. Just because he was fired doesn't make him wrong, and good for him for going the extra mile.

Being a new pup owner, when I was researching potential breeders, it was like trying to find a needle in a haystack. There was no one place to go to get all the information I was looking for. Heck, just trying to find breeders of DS was a task. Why can't there be a list?

I don't think that this could easily be done. In this case, the problem lies in the 'breed standard'.
There are several different philosophies about what a DS should look and act like. There are pure official papers, fake papers, new papers, and no papers. There is a huge gap in work (Ex: OB or freestyle) and work (Ex: dual purpose K9) It is up to the potential buyer to weed through what they perceive as important, then find a breeder that fits their vision and that breeder can possibly recommend/endorse other breeders with the same view. It all leads back to the beginning of this thread, in a way. Can the buyer tell the difference (between aggression and fear) and can the breeder? Caveat emptor. Buyer beware, but there is no one size fits all.

Good point. My only fear when selecting a new pup that is a new breed to me, that has to have a specific temperament and drive, is that I will get a pup that doesn't have that temperament or drive. Then I'm stuck with a pup I can't use for what I want. Doesn't mean I won't love him and take care of him for the rest of his life, but he would just be another pet and not the working dog I was looking for.

So then you send the pup back, since you have selected a breeder that will guarantee a certain amount of drive. You should be able to see that within the first few weeks. Lots of things can still go wrong, of course, but at least you know you got something that showed potential in the beginning. (All yours to mess up)

[Drizlaru]

I don't think that this could easily be done. In this case, the problem lies in the 'breed standard'.
There are several different philosophies about what a DS should look and act like. There are pure official papers, fake papers, new papers, and no papers. There is a huge gap in work (Ex: OB or freestyle) and work (Ex: dual purpose K9) It is up to the potential buyer to weed through what they perceive as important, then find a breeder that fits their vision and that breeder can possibly recommend/endorse other breeders with the same view. It all leads back to the beginning of this thread, in a way. Can the buyer tell the difference (between aggression and fear) and can the breeder? Caveat emptor. Buyer beware, but there is no one size fits all.

Point well made. I guess I'm trying to bring order to chaos, and it's not working.

So then you send the pup back, since you have selected a breeder that will guarantee a certain amount of drive. You should be able to see that within the first few weeks. Lots of things can still go wrong, of course, but at least you know you got something that showed potential in the beginning. (All yours to mess up)

That's the trick isn't it, finding a good breeder that would do that.