Need advice for traumatized DS

[Bosh]

I am adopting a 7 mo DS and live in Northern CA.I have no experience with this breed, but have had other dogs, including a German Shepherd. This dog previously (just over 2 weeks ago) been flown from The Netherlands to CO, where the owner had just moved to a new apartment. The dog had been trained for police work, but was" too nice" to continue so the owner's ex-boyfriend sent the dog to her, and a flight delay was on the plane for 25 hours! Once the dog arrived in CO, the owner became alarmed when the dog started biting/nipping at the ankles of the man who delivered furniture. The DS was growling when other people approached her when she was walking the dog. To add insult to injury, the owner just started a new job, which meant she has been gone for 11-12 hours per day. So traumatic for the poor dog and I want advice for making the transition here as smooth as possible. I am taking this dog sight unseen and know she will be very skittish. I live alone and have a great yard for a dog. I would love advice--- Help!

[Maggie Fan]

Based on the information that you've posted, this does not sound like the right Dutch Shepherd for a first-time Dutch Shepherd owner. Typically, they are not even a breed for every person and add a lot of emotional baggage to one...

[Dutchringgirl]

I agree with Maggie, the dog already has trauma and why is it biting? Some are taught to nip at heals of the animals they are hearding. Even a "normal" DS is not not not for the first time ds owner.

[johninny]

tho, the dog has gone thru a lot of change in a short time. and further, whose DS on this forum can be trusted NOT to nip at strangers moving things around in the house - or plumbers, etc. we know to keep control of our dogs in such a case. so this may not be all that bad. there are others here capable of offering good advice, but read thru past postings under behavior, whatever, new member, etc and you'll find a lot of good stuff. also look for recommendations of training videos [ leerburg, bowwowflix.com], books. and ASAP - like yesterday- try to find a local trainer with real experience with DS or Malinois [ positive reinforcement, confidence building, not sharp correction and really as little correction as possible]. your dog probably needs help re-establishing confidence and guidance as to how to act. just do no harm, keep everything positive, and address the problem quickly before it escalates or becomes an ingrained habit. so learn as much as you can as fast as you can. DS and Mals are not like other dogs and cannot be treated as many - including many trainers - are accustomed to treating other breeds.

[Lauren]

whose DS on this forum can be trusted NOT to nip at strangers moving things around in the house - or plumbers, etc.

Um, both of mine.

It is not that I don't think that a beginner can learn to handle a challenging DS, It is just that Wow. This one seems to have been through a lot. I second the idea that you need to find a trainer who works with this breed right away! I was so lucky to have found one in my tiny community who had trained them for police work. She help to transition me from regular dog owner to Dutchie owner. I couldn't have done it without her...

But since you are going to be getting this girl soon, set up a good crate. Make it a wonderful and relaxing place for her to be. Kongs that you can stuff and freeze for when you need to leave her alone work well. Chewing helps relieve their anxieties. Dutchies are super mouthy. If they are happy they chomp if they are anxious they chomp. If they are frustrated, they chomp. If she knows any obedience,start with what she knows and reward her. Exercise, exercise, exercise! (We call it "Exorcize" at our house. ) For my female at that age that meant about 3 hours of active exercise per day and several short training/thinking sessions. I mean play fetch until her tongue is hanging out. Walk walk walk! I lost 10-15 lbs during this time.

Don't go in heavy handed. They DO NOT respond well to that. Firm, consistent and kind. Keep a drag line on her in the house. She will think to get into things that you would never expect. Grabbing at her tail end to stop her will get you bitten. Also I think it is really helpful if you can keep your own emotions in check. They really pick up on peoples feelings around them. Think Zen!

All in all when you two make it through this you will probably be hooked on the breed for life!

Good luck with your new girl!

[Dutchringgirl]

whose DS on this forum can be trusted NOT to nip at strangers moving things around in the house - or plumbers, etc.

Um, both of mine.

[/quote]

Both of mine as well. I totaly trust them with strangers and things moving around the house.

[Dutchringgirl]

I am sorry, no offence against anyone but I dont thing a beginner and a DS are a good mix, especially a traumatized DS.

[Lauren]

I am sorry, no offence against anyone but I dont thing a beginner and a DS are a good mix, especially a traumatized DS.

I absolutely agree, but it sounds as if she is asking how to deal with the new dog, not whether or not to get it...
It sounded like a done deal?

[vneerland]

To "bosh" Welcome here. Would you please add a signature to your post and a small intro in the new member section?

It is not that I don't think that a beginner can learn to handle a challenging DS, It is just that Wow. This one seems to have been through a lot.

This one has been through a lot??? Like what? A plane trip? With a delay? So what? If the dog had been halfway stable, it would not have posed a BIT of a problem. They just get off the plane and are happy to be out of their box, rescued, if you will, by the new people on the other side.
I spot some red flags in the description. The dog was not hard enough/tough enough to do KNPV, just one of the many rejects, sold to the US. My red flag is the alleged ex boyfriend for the ex owner selling the dog? Really? The owner was just as sick of the dog as the 'ex boyfriend' who had no rights to the dog. Why not be honest and say the dog was (not cutting the mustard) That knowledge would help the new home to handle the dog accordingly. That does not change the fact that this dog needs guidance. I suspect that he/she has been a kennel dog until a couple of weeks ago, so lots of new situations and rules that need to be learned. Handling a dog that wants to bite (strangers) depends on the reason for the bite, unsure behavior, dominant behavior, etc etc. For that reason, I too think the best help will be found by an experienced local trainer who knows the breed. They can label what's going on, and give the tools to handle unwanted behavior.

[Nordis]

Ok, well take too long and have to re-log in and take the chance of losing what you had written because again you didn't remember to save it! So maybe you just got lucky and this is going to be edited down to one of my rare shorter posts!

These are only my opinions and I'm very open to being completely wrong. I'm just going on what I'm feeling based on what we know about the situation.

Ugh. I will remember to save things first from now on, I promise!

First, semantics. I would consider traumatized to be heavy abuse that results in tail between the legs and cowering. So I guess it depends on an individual's definition of abuse and trauma. I guess this part is actually pointless except for how it is perceived by other people. It doesn't change the dog's experiences so far.

I see Judith, who's posted while I've been writing, and I are thinking along same lines with this and some other points. I kind of feel a little pride about that. Where's my humble stick?

Points in your favor: This is a highly intelligent breed like your German Shepherd. They do learn and usually very very quickly. She's still a pup, so she's still learning a lot. Most learned behaviors can be changed as far as I know.

Consider that most police officers are not like the average citizen. They watch, scrutinize and categorize, and basically actively look for trouble and trouble makers. It's their job. Most have been trained to take an approach to the average citizen as being superior and having power over others. It is a fact that police officers I know are trained to be able to walk into a crowd of people and have that crowd part to make way for them without them needing to say or do anything obvious to the casual observer. I would consider what I know of police training to be more of a harsh and possibly militant experience, with no room to say no to it and the expectations of doing what you're told to do.

She's been trained by this to be this. She emulates what she's been surrounded by, but at the same time, she's managed to be herself still because of her "too niceness." So what you've got is a breed of dog that is naturally territorial and protective with those instincts having been encouraged and enhanced beyond what we would normally expect to see in a "citizen's dog." And a dog that can learn who has a base personality of being too nice.

I think careful, unbiased consideration is warranted on your part about if you should take the dog. Only you know how well you speak and understand dog language. Regardless of the cause of the behavior, bite issues are a serious thing with very bad consequences in some cases. Consider that you stand you lose your loved one and family member due to a misunderstanding on her part due to a simple inability to communicate with people on our level, and a mistaken interpretation on her part of what's going on. Consider the potential harm to a child or an elderly person or even a family member. These are all very bad, sad experiences and you'll find it hard to forgive yourself even if it isn't your fault. Be sure you are able to properly address the issue before you make your decision. Think far down the road. Don't let your emotions make this a drastic and hasty decision for you now.

One thing to keep in mind during this: North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue does exist and people are waiting for their dog. It is possible that a person with the background and knowledge she needs to give her the best second experience she can have has their application submitted to NADSR.

I found a kitten once. Poking her head up out of a box on the side of a freeway. It was dark out, so I parked close enough in front of her with my lights on and engine running so she wouldn't bolt when she saw and heard me. I walked back behind and approached her on the right side of the vehicle. There she was, stretching up as tall as she could sit looking to see, not running away. So I said, "Kitten, what are you doing out here!?" She wailed and said, "I've been waiting for you!!!!" Despite the fact that I was currently house sitting with 9 cats and a dog, and I had one cat of my own at home, I couldn't refuse her, so home she came. My lovable loud mouthed Frend was part of my family for just over a year before life decided I need a drastic recalibration. I could only bring one cat with me, and one had at least 10 years seniority to her, so I had to relinquish her to a no kill shelter. It was horrible for me. After all, we had been brought together. The shelter told me if I didn't hear from them it was a good thing, and I never did hear from them. I knew that given her personality and petiteness, despite her propensity to talk too much, someone would take her. The most helpful thing a friend told me, in response to my again saying we had been brought together, was perhaps we had been brought together so I could help her get to the home she was supposed to be in. Though I still feel I failed her, thinking about it like this does help to soften the experience.

Perhaps, after looking at what different people here think and your own examination of the situation, if you do decide against keeping her you can be the good foster experience for her and have a similar role to what I describe above. I can say from my own experience that NADSR gives an incredible amount of selfless effort to matching us. Despite the fact that I was set on a puppy, I can't imagine Rorhin belonging anywhere else but at my side where he is constantly and is now. From what I've seen I think most NADSR rescuers will fully agree with their own experiences.

As well, at the same time you are working with NADSR on this you can have them keeping you in mind for when your dog that is your match comes to the point where s/he needs your help.

Personally I have great faith in the intelligence and ability of Dutch Shepherds. So unlike with some other breeds, given that I would have the time and resource, I would consider owning a DS with "issues." I'll just say here that that is Huge coming from me. All of this means I have no personal opinion on what you should or should not decide. I'm not in a position to say either way. All I'm concerned with is that you are fair to yourself and to the dog. What I can share with you is the knowledge that when a dog with bite issues is part of your family and creates an incident, with that elderly man who was doing nothing to set the dog off, you will have a fear not of but for that person and you will feel personally responsible like you are the one who attacked him. You will experience fear for your loved one and fear the repercussions that may come, including your loved one being put down, and you will feel personally responsible that you allowed the incident to occur, like you are the one who should have been able to predict and prevent this from happening. It's awful awful awful in so many ways. Fortunately we didn't get to experience what it would have been like to have the dog put down. I don't want to even imagine that part.

Onward. (So much for getting a short post from me!)

I am a worst case scenario person. Consider most of what follows as coming from this perspective.

Should you decide to accept the dog that means you are accepting the responsibility of protecting yourself, the dog, and other people and animals from yourself, from her, and from her actions and behaviors, and from other people's and animal's actions and behaviors. Realize that some these are not things you have any kind of control over.

In the way that a police officer silently asserts his/her dominance so do you get to gently and firmly assert your dominance as her Alpha. Hopefully you'll do this without it ever even being questioned or needing affirmation.

There is valuable information in the posts from people here already. One concern I have is that you have a lot of free time. Sure crate training can be incorporated to help with some of your time you need to do other stuff, but ideally, you're going to be available to just share the space as she sees life settle into a routine that will be predictable and can provide her with a sense of security.

I like the idea of letting the dog bond with you as opposed to you bonding with the dog. Should she be skittish and shy I'm thinking less eye contact and verbal communication, just calmly going about life as is normal. I think there is a big difference between talking to her and talking at her, and a subtle difference between not talking to her and continuing a running narrative about what you're doing, how your day goes, what's going to be happening next, talking to the air. She'll listen to all of this and understand more than most people will give credit for.

I'm putting your crate here because it's close to this and that's my old tv I'd like to have a new one and I'll need to pay this bill so don't let me forget and if I'm going to let you on the furniture perhaps I'll use this blanket to cover it because we all know how dogs like to shed and maybe I'll make a salad for dinner and the mail's supposed to come around this o'clock so we can be expecting that and that noise is the trash truck going by they come every week on this day and blah blah blah... Speaking in a matter of fact way, at a normal, or slow if you talk fast, speed in a same room soft, calm voice will demonstrate to her that this is a safe space and we are relaxed and comfy. When the mail comes and the noises start your tone remains the same so she knows nothing is changing. Of course be aware of where she is and what she is doing and gently, calmly, and firmly correct when necessary by reorienting her focus onto a positive behavior.

Remember it only takes a minute to chew up a rubber duck, two leashes, a plant, and fortunately not my shoes while you're looking in the other direction! It's not time to raise your voice yet if you're upset about what's been ruined/destroyed/annihilated/decimated! As you likely know in the long run you'd gladly give many more of those if it's between those and your dog. All of this is because she is going to key her mood based on yours.

If you decide to keep her on a lead at home perhaps it's easier to get a slightly longer one and have it attached to a belt you wear. This way if she's not naturally following you about like we would expect she'll understand that it's what is happening and you'll be able to see what she's up to. You can still give the appearance of being unattached to the outcome - meaning seeming to not paying any attention to her.

Even if she's shy, given enough of this she'll bond to you when she figures out you're a good person and Alpha and she can trust you. Reserve getting excited and exuberant praise for later on when it can be used as a reward for proper behavior and is recognized as approval from the person who is important to her.

My opinion: Do not think (as you already know) that taking her for walks in a normal populated neighborhood is a good idea. Do not have people come into your home to move furniture around. If you decide to go for walks then this is when you get to be hyper-vigilant. Be aware of where you are and what is around you, where you are going, what's coming towards you from all directions, and on and on. Be aware that there is a person, sitting on the ground at dog level right next to the on the other side of the doorway you are going through where you do not expect a person to be sitting. (Personal experience last week.) This is unexpected and surprising and that can lead to a fear reaction. Expect every person you see to run towards your dog and drop to their knees and hug her like a long lost friend, and be prepared to prevent this. A loud firm command "shouted" at people can be quite effective at getting them to stop their ignorant approach. Screw their opinions about the angry old man! This is my dog we're talking about.

It's my habit and natural desire to not want to let other people around my dog. I actively avoid getting close enough to other people to allow comments or conversations to be attempted. Like eating food, it's just safer if you don't do it. But it's hard to avoid.

And the universe is against you on this matter. This is very important: Know that this breed of dog attracts an excessively disproportionate and unfair amount of attention. People seem to think that I am not aware that my dog is extremely handsome and good looking. They love to tell me how beautiful my German Shepherd is, or ask me what kind of dog is that mixed with German Shepherd? And it's more than just small children that rush to pet my dog without any forethought as to whether this dog bites! I'm working hard at not snapping at people while I'm pulling my full of too much love dog back from them as he goes to accept their greeting. I fail a lot. Then I have to apologize and explain.

I very much consider it my responsibility to protect my dog from other people and their untrained dogs when that applies. When around other people I keep Rorhin at my side with a short lead on the leash. If we're walking and I see we will be getting close to someone he is called to my side until after we pass and are in a free space again. Then the praise and release command so the things that need to be sniffed can get their sniffing. I use a good collar and leash with a firm grip and I still get caught off guard all the time. Fortunately Rorhin hasn't studied any of the Dutch Shepherd breed texts and doesn't know how far off he is from doing what he's supposed to do. As far as he's concerned every person needs to know that he loves them very very much. For this dog you're considering, do not let that getting caught off guard happen. One instance can have really bad outcomes. Besides, it's a common courtesy we dog people can show to others. Many people are afraid of dogs due to past experiences, or just ignorance. Some cultures of people are also the same way. They just don't like or, fear dogs. The larger the dog and the more intimidating the appearance of the breed the greater the fear. And the Dutch Shepherd is one of those breeds that people people who are scared of dogs seem to have a greater reaction to. It's polite of us to have our dogs come close to us and visually demonstrate that I am minding my dog in an effort to ensure you can be comfortable as we share space and have nothing to fear from us. People do recognize this and can/may thank you for it. But we're not being polite with an expectation of being rewarded and thanked. Actually I wear headphones to avoid being talked to. Funny how people don't seem to understand I can't hear them, but not as funny as the few who use an improvised sign language!

Once you've established clearly your position as Alpha and have that rapport of trust I'd recommend looking for someone who is experienced in police training dogs. I think it's a good idea to talk to those people now just so you can get an idea of what police training entails. Not so you can continue with that form of training, but so you have some idea of what she may have experienced so far and what kind of triggers may set her off and how she's been taught to see the world. Hopefully you can find a person who is flexible enough to listen to your concerns and offer an approach that helps her to learn not all citizens are criminals and therefore that behavior doesn't apply now.

And those are the words I'd use for her when you do get a growling response or when they come to move furniture and you're holding her at her sit/stay/heel position next to you, or when passing someone while on a walk. For us not paying attention to the person(s) or dog(s) trying to get our attention is "No Heed." For you maybe it's going to be. "Don't growl." Followed by, "Growling isn't acceptable and we don't do that now. Now we share space with other people. Good Don't Growl. [yummy edible treat here]" You've given the command, and you continue with your pacifying firm calm gentle voice she knows as identifying safety and security, you've included the word from the command in the explanation so she equates that with leaving off that behavior, and should you choose to have a positive reinforcement command for you may have included that as well. "Don't Growl. Share space." Then during and upon successful completion of the proper behavior she gets her positive reinforcement praise, "Good don't growl. Good share space." Eventually it turns into just, "Good share space," because you don't have to tell her not to do it anymore.

Perhaps someone here will also have input on the idea of contacting a person who does bite work for some insight. Again, not necessarily to pursue that line of training but to gain a better understanding of that behavior and the on and off switches for it.

So you're working as a team and communicating. Now it's time to address the socialization issues by working with an experienced person(s) helping you both in a controlled environment.

For a positive reassurance you are looking in the right place for advice, I refer you to the Photographs section of the forum. Progress with behavior issues can be made with our dogs:

Took my camera to the latest training session w/Radar...

I think this post is actually longer now, and I know I forgot stuff I had written before! Sorry, but I've never been comfortable with being brief and leaving something to speculation on the reader's part. My best to you both and good thoughts that it all works out wonderfully for everyone.

[Lauren]

This one has been through a lot??? Like what? A plane trip? With a delay? So what? I

Well, I kind of meant that it was probably a kennel dog in a training program. Who knows what kind of training they employed or when it was yanked from it's litter. The at 7 months of age (skirting on a major fear period) She is flown half way around the world with a 26 hour wait where for certain hunger and the need to defecate have taken place. Most airports are sprightly places with lots of hustle and bustle that she probably hadn't been around. Then into a new home with someone she didn't know who obviously did not give her secure boundaries... or she wouldn't have been loose in the house while a new stranger was bringing in new furniture to her new space. Now she is being uprooted again, flown again. It seems like a lot. Especially at her rather sensitive age.

Call me a softie. It is more than I would expect mine to be happy/confident through at that age. But I agree this dog should be able to bounce back with some help as long as she is stable in temperament. And a professional is the best place to start with that.

[Christie M]

I have to agree that a healthy, confident, stable dog would not have its temperament this damaged from what has occurred thus far. My guess is that it is not that the dog was "too nice," it probably lacked confidence. So a dog that has some bitework training - that lacks confidence - can be a big problem. They tend to take pop shots because they want the potential threat to go away, but don't have the guts to have a real confrontation. Control, and teaching the dog that only one party decides what happens next - and that is the owner - is often the only way the dogs can be successful. Socialization at this age will likely not help much, and besides, some dogs are perfectly happy with just their family unit anyway.

Perhaps the dog's BEST chances would be with an experienced working dog person, but honestly not many of those are hanging around waiting for a problem child to take in so they can donate their time to another project. The fact that you want to take the dog in and work with it says a lot. I would find a good trainer, and in the meantime, invest in and condition the dog to a basket muzzle. This will give you the security of knowing that as you work through problems, the dog is not able to hurt anyone and reward itself by scaring or effecting other people's behavior (frightened people can be very rewarding).

[AFronhei]

I may be new to owning the breed, but I have worked with high-energy dogs my entire life. I was also an MP in the US Army and I don't feel police training led to the dog's high strung, over protective nature. By design, police dogs are trained to respond only when asked to unless there is an imminent threat their handler is not aware of. Few dogs get discarded for being "too nice" it is more like "unfit for duty due to personality flaw" which can run a gamut of problems from undue aggression to other forms of instability to include lack of confidence which is a serious flaw in any of the breeds typically used as K9s. Police dogs are not "mean" so therefore they cannot be "too nice." Again that's my personal and professional opinion.

My DS is a rescue who has endured trauma. He was locked in a tiny kennel for 3 yrs, never let out, rarely touched, and even more rarely fed. He ate cats who wandered into said kennel to survive. He is not, however, people aggressive. In fact, given what he was put through he is very well behaved. I have taken him into crowds of people with confidence. So, I tend to agree with the dog being generally unstable. There is more going on than improper socialization.