Hereditary Hernias?

[vneerland]

While I have had Hollanders for 20 years I have not dealt with many hernia's yet.
I do know that every vet always checks for them in pups. My first malinois had an umbillical heria (dutch: navelbreuk) and while it was pronounced when he was a pup, It was very tight when he was an adult, muscled over to the extent that he lived to be 16 and it never was a problem.
Recently, I aquired a pup and with the initial exam, the vet sure took a long time feeling the abdomen. Then one continent and one vet later, the same thing...a lot of prodding and the voiced concern of a possible inguinal hernia (dutch: liesbreuk)
An inguinal hernia is a protrusion of abdominal-cavity contents through the inguinal canal. The protruded intenstins may cause severe problems, of course, and can cause the dogs death if undetected for too long. (24-48 hours to death?)
It can be repaired, thank goodness, but the bad news is that there appears to be a hereditary factor to the inguinal hernia. While an umbillical hernia can well be injury, sustained after birth by the bitch chewing the umbillical cord, I have not heard of inguinal herina's being injury related? Can they be? I was also unable to find reliable info on how the inguinal herias pass on. The most shocking bit of info was that in Swine, the occurance can go from 1.7% to 90% in just 6 generations. Holy....s***.
Does anyone have leads to more information about this? Needless to say, I would not breed a dog with a heriditary problem, no matter how good a dog it is. I am hoping not to have to make such decision, but in the meantime, I would love to hear if anyone has heard of dogs with herina's and if anyone can shed some more light on the inheritance.

[Marjolein]

I only know of umbillical hernia, I had one in Ivil's litter. Ivil also has a very small one, it did not need operating on and it is now filled up with fat-tissue and feels like a little lump, 1cm wide. No problems. Ivil was not carefull bitng off the umbillical cords so I helped out with the first ones by pressing on the tiny pups belly while she was chewing the cord. She was so fast, I could not keep up (10 in 1,5 hours) and I could not prevent her from standing up walking around with a pup dangling on the cord underneath her. Surprisingly this one did not have an umbillical hernia. One of the males did, it had to be operated on. Not sure if this was throught injury. Probabely.
I have never heard of an inguinal hernia in DS. I will ask some more experienced breeders if they have ever had it

[asheleylane]

After looking around, not much solid info. to be had on the inguinal hernias.
It looks like overall, they are considered "hereditary" but not termed "genetic" - the difference being that hereditary implies that there are multiple complex genetics at play, and expression is influenced by environment as well. For instance, the rate of osteosarcoma in Rottweilers is statistically higher than in other breeds - but it isn't so simple as to say it is "genetic" although obviously genes somehow make them more prone to that tumor type, so it would be more appropriately termed "hereditary" (or familial).
They are uncommon in dogs, but there is a higher risk in toy breeds and Westies, hence the hereditary assumption - although the conformation of toy breeds could be the factor in higher risk, as opposed to specific genes. There haven't been any studies of families or pedigrees of dogs with inguinal hernias, because it is so rare and sporadic even in those breeds at-risk.
I would be curious if any DS breeders you know have ever seen one Marjolein? I haven't even in 5 years of general practice!

[MXCasey]

Can you feel the hernia? Normally they are quite easily palpable- sometimes you can even see it, as a lump bulging out of the wall of the abdomen. Then you can run your fingers over the area, in case of a dangerous hernia you will be able to stick your fingers inside The lump hanging out of the abdomen can be pushed back inside. (the reason hernias can be lethal is that intestine can get trapped inside, and tissue can die because of lack of oxygen).
I agree you shouldn't breed a dog with any kind of hernia (no matter how small, unless you are 100% sure it's traumatic) however I am a bit confused about how there can be any doubt about whether she has or hasn't got a hernia.

Kees

[Christie M]

Can you feel the hernia? Normally they are quite easily palpable- sometimes you can even see it, as a lump bulging out of the wall of the abdomen. Then you can run your fingers over the area, in case of a dangerous hernia you will be able to stick your fingers inside The lump hanging out of the abdomen can be pushed back inside. (the reason hernias can be lethal is that intestine can get trapped inside, and tissue can die because of lack of oxygen).
I agree you shouldn't breed a dog with any kind of hernia (no matter how small, unless you are 100% sure it's traumatic) however I am a bit confused about how there can be any doubt about whether she has or hasn't got a hernia.

Kees

An inguinal hernia occurs when the inguinal rings that separate the testicles from the rest of the body don't fully close. What you are thinking of is an umbilical hernia.

I had one puppy a year and a half ago have one. There is no history of it on the sire's side or in his other offspring, and he's been used quite a bit. It was the female's first and last litter.

[Casey]

Christie: The puppy in question is a baby girl- no testicles to be separated from the rest of the body The difference between the two is just the location. In either case the wall of the abdomen has a weekness (hole) in it through which the intestine can leave the abdominal cavity and get trapped.

[vneerland]

Can you feel the hernia? Normally they are quite easily palpable- sometimes you can even see it, as a lump bulging out of the wall of the abdomen. Then you can run your fingers over the area, in case of a dangerous hernia you will be able to stick your fingers inside The lump hanging out of the abdomen can be pushed back inside. (the reason hernias can be lethal is that intestine can get trapped inside, and tissue can die because of lack of oxygen).
I agree you shouldn't breed a dog with any kind of hernia (no matter how small, unless you are 100% sure it's traumatic) however I am a bit confused about how there can be any doubt about whether she has or hasn't got a hernia.

Kees

I can not feel it. And it is not visible. I suspect there is a possible weak spot to be felt, where the vet(s) suspect a problem?
I have been trying since, without the eureka moment myself.

[Marjolein]

Just got the answer, there is no record of anyone ever having seen this. Which doesn't mean it never happened, but at least not often, or with any of the recent litters (most were visited and these things were recorded) within the NHC (Dutch DS Breeders Club).
Funny thing is, the breeder I aksed has just been operated on one himself But it was not there when he was born and he is doing well now, just a bit of pain, but it'll heal

[MXCasey]

I can not feel it. And it is not visible. I suspect there is a possible weak spot to be felt, where the vet(s) suspect a problem?
I have been trying since, without the eureka moment myself.

A hernia is really a hole in the muscular layer of the wall of the abdomen- not 'just' a week spot. The fascias (layers of fibrous tissue below and above the muscular layers) are also involved. Even if it is just a small hernia you can still put a finger through the hole (the skin would be the only thing separating the outside world and the abdominal cavity). Small hernias can repair by themselves but you would still have a small bump of adipose (fatty) tissue on the outside. So if you can't see it and can't feel it I am positively sure there's no hernia
The only other explanation would be that the puppy has been operated on- in that case the vet may feel something that makes him suspect there once was a hernia, like sutures (the knots sometimes can be felt long after the surgery). Otherwise a well-repaired hernia leaves no marks. Do you know the person who sold you the puppy?

Kees

[vneerland]

I have had a dog with an umbillical hernia, and I do remember that there was the bump and the place where you could poke right through it. It was small, no more than a fingertip would fit through and it did, indeed, repair itself.
Does anyone have a pic of where an inguinal hernia can be seen? If you always have to see a hernia for a hernia to be a hernia, than there is no hernia. If you sometimes feel it, but there is no visual, does that mean it is just caught early, or is it still very small?
I do know the breeder, yes. I would think that if anything had been repaired, I should still see a scar? The pup is barey > 3 months old, surely you cannot operate in utero? She is very large though (25 lbs at 3 months) all legs, growing like a weed. Could loose conformation (at this point) be causing the confusion?

[Christie M]

I have had a dog with an umbillical hernia, and I do remember that there was the bump and the place where you could poke right through it. It was small, no more than a fingertip would fit through and it did, indeed, repair itself.
Does anyone have a pic of where an inguinal hernia can be seen? If you always have to see a hernia for a hernia to be a hernia, than there is no hernia. If you sometimes feel it, but there is no visual, does that mean it is just caught early, or is it still very small?
I do know the breeder, yes. I would think that if anything had been repaired, I should still see a scar? The pup is barey > 3 months old, surely you cannot operate in utero? She is very large though (25 lbs at 3 months) all legs, growing like a weed. Could loose conformation (at this point) be causing the confusion?

I think we need Asheley

The inguinal hernia that I had was in a male pup. It could not be seen, but it could be pretty easily palpated. I will be very interested to hear the physiology of it all.

[MXCasey]

I have had a dog with an umbillical hernia, and I do remember that there was the bump and the place where you could poke right through it. It was small, no more than a fingertip would fit through and it did, indeed, repair itself.
Does anyone have a pic of where an inguinal hernia can be seen? If you always have to see a hernia for a hernia to be a hernia, than there is no hernia. If you sometimes feel it, but there is no visual, does that mean it is just caught early, or is it still very small?
I do know the breeder, yes. I would think that if anything had been repaired, I should still see a scar? The pup is barey > 3 months old, surely you cannot operate in utero? She is very large though (25 lbs at 3 months) all legs, growing like a weed. Could loose conformation (at this point) be causing the confusion?

I think we need Asheley

The inguinal hernia that I had was in a male pup. It could not be seen, but it could be pretty easily palpated. I will be very interested to hear the physiology of it all.

Did the hernia go down into the scrotum? That would explain the fact you couldn't see it Or sometimes the contents of the hernia go back into the cavity and the hernia 'disappears' but you can still palpate it easily.

In case of a female puppy without scrotum and a hernia that can't be seen nor palpated and hasn't been operated on- My guess is there is no, and never has been, a hernia

Kees

[Marjolein]

surely you cannot operate in utero?

They can in humans so, who knows..

images:







These cannot be missed but there must be milder cases?

[vneerland]

Funny thing is, the breeder I aksed has just been operated on one himself But it was not there when he was born and he is doing well now, just a bit of pain, but it'll heal

Wish him 'beterschap' please.

They are uncommon in dogs, but there is a higher risk in toy breeds and Westies, hence the hereditary assumption - although the conformation of toy breeds could be the factor in higher risk, as opposed to specific genes. There haven't been any studies of families or pedigrees of dogs with inguinal hernias, because it is so rare and sporadic even in those breeds at-risk.

I had found the same reference to Westies. And you ad toy breeds, which would answer my own question about a link to the 'moose baby' stage. (not likely)

I will try to palpate again. Surely if vets can feel something (two separate ones, one spent a lot of time feeling the abdomen but never mentioned anything, the other expressed doubt and wanted to recheck at a later date) I should be able to as well. -if it is obvious- No visual though, that I am sure of. (especially after seeing the pictures that Marjolein found. Holy bovine!)

[asheleylane]

Does anyone have a pic of where an inguinal hernia can be seen? If you always have to see a hernia for a hernia to be a hernia, than there is no hernia. If you sometimes feel it, but there is no visual, does that mean it is just caught early, or is it still very small?
I do know the breeder, yes. I would think that if anything had been repaired, I should still see a scar? The pup is barey > 3 months old, surely you cannot operate in utero? She is very large though (25 lbs at 3 months) all legs, growing like a weed. Could loose conformation (at this point) be causing the confusion?

I don't pay attention for 24 hours and....
Looks like Marjolein got the photos already!
There is no in-utero surgery in dogs, to my knowledge ever, even in very valuable dogs.
If you can't feel it then 1. the "hole" must be quite small, too small to feel with your finger (so smaller than a finger width) and 2. there are no abdominal contents "poking" through at that time. You may not see a hernia either, again if there are no contents sticking out.
If one vet. didn't find it, and you haven't felt a hole or a bulge despite hours of belly massage, maybe you are in the clear?

[turnnburn52984]

We just operated (I'm a vet tech) on a inguinal hernia on Wednesday! COOL surgery, poor pup had a section of intestine caught in it, that had gone necrotic. Looked terrible. I'll see if I can get pics from my phone up, I've got some of the intestine and uterus that were necrotic, along with the rest of the 'yuck' that was removed if anyone is interested in the graphic end of it.

It's a nightmare case now. Dog got e-collar off, and tore around the house, ripping stitches out. We applied a fentanyl patch today, and sent home MORE pain meds + sedative, but the owner can't/won't pill her dog, and can't bribe her with anything. (so she says) She's going to take the dog to the E-vet 2x a day over the weekend to let them pill her super fractious dog! Yikes! $$$$$$$$........ lol.

I'd get a second opinion... and then an ultrasound if there is still a question. Especially if this is otherwise a breeding quality pup, you'll want to know, and early so it can be fixed before it becomes something like my hospital delt with on Wednesday!