Lineage questions?

[Revhendo]

OK, as we all know, my Dinga Roo is a mix. So my questions about lineage doesn't even relate to her. I love her to infinity and beyond, so she could be crossed with a Giant Monitor Lizard and it wouldn't matter to me one bit.

Since I've been on the forum I've been trying to digest what information I can about DS breeding lines and the jobs that the dogs are bread for. (Sporting, working, protection, whatever). I know that the breed tends to adapt to it's job eagerly (for lack of a better term), but what the parents were trained for and excelled at tend to be passed down to the offspring. It seems to be the case when a litter of pups becomes available, the traits of the parents and their accomplishments are very relevant. I noticed this with the breeders that (awesomely) post on this forum and from other musings (Former GSD owner).

I guess my question lays in what I've read in some breeders description that I've recently perused. I've seen statements like not being a Malinois Dutch Shepherd cross, which really caused a bit of a rattle in my brain, or statements about how all DS's generally are and not so much about how the parents or grandparents are. I know this is a really important thing in show dogs and race horses, but not so much if it is with our brindled beasties. I won't point any out nor do I want to dog out anybody. (Scuze the expression). I could be all wrong on this or just having a Monday. I just tend to be a bit protective and maybe touchy on the subject. I would hate to see our wonderful friends reduced to merely bottom lines on a ledger and farm raised like cattle.

I probably didn't word this the best. For that I apologize. I hope the heart of my question can be answered.

[Christie M]

Hey Kevin,

I will be honest in saying that I am not exactly sure what your question is. I lost it somewhere. But here is what I THINK will answer it....I think.

The Dutch Shepherd and the Belgian Shepherd were the same breed. In fact, before that, you can include the German Shepherd as well. They were all just European farm dogs. At some point in history, each country decided to develop their own breed standard, the breed clubs were formed and people began breeding true to physical type vs. just work. There are numerous photos from the early 1900s of brindle GSD. It has taken a very long time for the breeds to be as different as they are.

In Holland and Belgium, when the breed clubs decided on a physical "type" there were still people breeding just for function. That still exists today. So there have always been crosses, and there have been people breeding just based on structure (pure) since the division. The breed club in Holland only closed its stud book in the 1970s. Until then, if it was brindle, smelled like a Dutch, looked like a Dutch and acted like a Dutch.....it was a Dutch. Even after the closing, lying was common place so that papers could exist on working specimen. All Dutch have mal in them, as all mal probably have Dutch in them. They come from a common ancestor - just how many generations back differs.

The other question, of course, becomes what is the actual "job" or work for the Dutch Shepherd. This is where I differ from many of my working dog companions. I have dogs that bite - and would not choose breeding stock that could not perform that function. That doesn't mean that all of my puppies have to. It just means that the parents I chose show that they have the nerve to. However, I do not believe that is the original job of the breed. I think they were herders first, human and livestock guardian second. So I have no problem with people who value that as the breed standard - it just isn't for me. I see their newer (and by newer - I still mean a time that predates probably everyone on this forum) job as an important function to continue to aspire to.

So the "pure" FCI Dutch Shepherds are only pure since the 70s (at the earliest). The mixed dogs are mixed -and in my opinion should be called such. But again, the only difference is the two is number of generations and when they go from "mixed" to "pure" is a question mark to me as well. Where is that generational cutoff? There are a great many people here in the US who are working to consistently breed brindle to brindle of solid working dogs to continue a line of working Dutch Shepherds. Those are the people who use the words "Dutch Shepherd" and "Belgian Malinois" to describe a breed - not a color.

[LyonsFamily]

I think Christie had a nice response. I too am a little confused by the question, but maybe I can add something. I think there are a lot of things we can generalize about the breed. It is a breed after all, so there are a lot of similar traits. I don't think every dog is the same and not all breeders are breeding for the same thing, but comparing two Dutch Shepherds is going to be way easier than compared one with something like a Basset.

As for the "pure" lines, I think people are trying to market away from some bad things associated with mixing the mals in. There are a lot of crappy breeders adding brindle to their malinois lines just to make extra money for a "rare" Dutch Shepherd (I hate the word rare when it comes to dogs and breeds btw) and saying they're doing what the Europeans do or that they're just breeding for the best working dog when in fact their dogs don't do any sort of work and they're just trying to make puppies for money because their stud mal is no longer bringing in the profits.

I've worked with malinois rescue a lot and the value of a backyard bred mal is getting closer and closer to nothing and poor breeders are finding they can't sell litters or even give them away and are just dumping whole litters. Where as DS rescue, although they get in dogs often and occasional litters, they aren't seeing it as much. I think some breeders saying they have "pure" DS are trying to point out that they personally don't breed in the malinois, but try to keep as much DS in in the current generations. I know Cher Car advertises on her website using pure bred DS, but nobody hides the fact that their are malinois generations ago in her dogs.

There is a whole other side of the purebred debate and a lot of it is coming from a few US breeders of longhairs and a few rough coats. Their are some short haired owners involved, but for the most part they stay out of it. Unfortunately, the new AKC breed club has a lot of members that feel this way and it is quite a turn off for that venue being a part of the future of the breed. They think only dogs that come from FCI backgrounds, excluding those with open studbooks, are pure and acceptable as Dutch Shepherds. They're more into the rarity of the breed and don't do bite sports or protection sports with their dogs, but breed to supposedly expand the gene pool.

I've had quite a few bad experiences with some of these people. I've been trying to find a rough haired breeder for my next dog and have been told by many people in the US that have them that because Elli has malinois in her, she's more aggressive, or they just stop talking to me when they find out I'm ok with KNPV lines. I was considering taking her and Odin for Rally at this year's first AKC FSS specialty for the breed, but club members I've talked to haven't been very welcoming of them.

[Revhendo]

I think Christie had a nice response. I too am a little confused by the question, but maybe I can add something. I think there are a lot of things we can generalize about the breed. It is a breed after all, so there are a lot of similar traits. I don't think every dog is the same and not all breeders are breeding for the same thing, but comparing two Dutch Shepherds is going to be way easier than compared one with something like a Basset.

As for the "pure" lines, I think people are trying to market away from some bad things associated with mixing the mals in. There are a lot of crappy breeders adding brindle to their malinois lines just to make extra money for a "rare" Dutch Shepherd (I hate the word rare when it comes to dogs and breeds btw) and saying they're doing what the Europeans do or that they're just breeding for the best working dog when in fact their dogs don't do any sort of work and they're just trying to make puppies for money because their stud mal is no longer bringing in the profits.

I've worked with malinois rescue a lot and the value of a backyard bred mal is getting closer and closer to nothing and poor breeders are finding they can't sell litters or even give them away and are just dumping whole litters. Where as DS rescue, although they get in dogs often and occasional litters, they aren't seeing it as much. I think some breeders saying they have "pure" DS are trying to point out that they personally don't breed in the malinois, but try to keep as much DS in in the current generations. I know Cher Car advertises on her website using pure bred DS, but nobody hides the fact that their are malinois generations ago in her dogs.

There is a whole other side of the purebred debate and a lot of it is coming from a few US breeders of longhairs and a few rough coats. Their are some short haired owners involved, but for the most part they stay out of it. Unfortunately, the new AKC breed club has a lot of members that feel this way and it is quite a turn off for that venue being a part of the future of the breed. They think only dogs that come from FCI backgrounds, excluding those with open studbooks, are pure and acceptable as Dutch Shepherds. They're more into the rarity of the breed and don't do bite sports or protection sports with their dogs, but breed to supposedly expand the gene pool.

I've had quite a few bad experiences with some of these people. I've been trying to find a rough haired breeder for my next dog and have been told by many people in the US that have them that because Elli has malinois in her, she's more aggressive, or they just stop talking to me when they find out I'm ok with KNPV lines. I was considering taking her and Odin for Rally at this year's first AKC FSS specialty for the breed, but club members I've talked to haven't been very welcoming of them.

I'm really sorry for the confusion of my question. I was just reading some stuff on a few other sites of breeders and got all wound up and pretty much nothing came out right. I just saw what has happened to other breeds like GSDs (a long time family tradition) and others. I just don't want that happening to our DS's. I actually prefer they stay a working dog. Honestly, I'm not sure if being UKC, AKC, CKC, or KFC recognized is a blessing or a curse.

When Dinga Roo found me, I had been looking for a GSD or a Belgian Tervuren (which I consider to be a stunning and underrated dog). I am so glad to have discovered Dutch Shepherds, I don't think Deb or I would consider looking for anything else, now.

[LyonsFamily]

When Dinga Roo found me, I had been looking for a GSD or a Belgian Tervuren (which I consider to be a stunning and underrated dog). I am so glad to have discovered Dutch Shepherds, I don't think Deb or I would consider looking for anything else, now.

Funny, we were looking at Tervurens too. I was on a waiting list for a terv/groenendael breeder when Odin came into our lives. Now we have 2 and a new DS foster on the way and couldn't be happier.

[johninny]

new DS foster?

[LyonsFamily]

new DS foster?

I'm still working out the details with Trudy and getting info from his current foster, but he should be here in a few weeks. From what I've heard so far, he's very much like an adolescent Odin and needs some training help. I'll post an intro in his own post after he arrives.