Wish us luck!

[johninny]

ok, good; sorry i did not pick up on that.
do keep in mind that how and when treats are delivered - precise timing and with purpose and respect - is important.
GOOD LUCK. thinking about you all.

[Dutchringgirl]

sounds like a good plan !!

[Mobil]

Thanks for all the support and advice, guys. I Really appreciate it. I'm second guessing myself a lot because it's so overwhelming.

Also, fair warning; I have been told before that I can come off as rather terse and blunt, so my apologies if that's the case. Tone is so hard to convey in this medium. I'm much more animated IRL. LOL

[Raven]

I'm second guessing myself a lot because it's so overwhelming.

Like I said before, it's new, there's learning curves and the OMGs are hardest in the very beginning.

Also, fair warning; I have been told before that I can come off as rather terse and blunt, so my apologies if that's the case. Tone is so hard to convey in this medium. I'm much more animated IRL. LOL

It IS hard to convey tone in this medium, especially if someone hasn't been around awhile, but you haven't come across terse at all. Others, I think, would have become defensive or walked away, but you replied with equanimity. But I drink excessively so what do I know. (....kidding....)

[Dutchringgirl]

But I drink excessively so what do I know. (....kidding....)

Maybe thats the problem, we all drink too much

[Mobil]

With as many kids as I have, I'm surprised I don't drink more.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

You mean you're not supposed to be tipsy by 4 pm????

Seriously though, it's all good. It is overwhelming at first. And especially emotionally! I used to sit in the car with Hendrix and cry because I felt so horrible that he had done kujo on a bazillion people that day and they had given me the stink eye. I hated feeling like I wasn't helping him, that I couldn't stop what was happening, and because I loved him so much it scared me because I didn't want him to hurt someone or himself from going kujo - or be taken away from me. There is hope though!

For an example of sometimes meaning well and being off with the timing of treats, I totally accidentally taught my guy to bark and snarl to get more treats from strangers. When he was smaller I was horribly off with the timing of my treats when we met new people. He got treats for barking and/or snarling. He'd bark, pause, get a treat, snarl, get a treat… it was a learning curve I corrected as I got better without realizing it. Well, I didn't figure out the correlation between his weird outbursts until one day he was happy with a stranger until they ran out of treats. Then it was hello snarls. A quick "no" from me stopped him and he was calm and not aggressive towards them. (face palm) He thought snarling got more treats, which it did, so it because a way for him to "demand" more food, even though he was fine with the person. We've since fixed the problem, but man did I feel stupid!

So just be VERY mindful of how you treat him. I face palm every time he attempts to get treats that way, which is rarely now, but he still tries it because it may one day work. Which is why I highly suggest to anyone working out fear aggression to try to work in a very controlled environment first - mainly for handler fails, because it will happen, because we are human, and it takes time to learn the signals and right moments to treat in these cases.

But we are here for you to try to help in anyway we can. Sometimes even adjusting small things can help since I personally found not every behaviorist can fully understand your dog and its quirks the way you do. There are certain mechanics that you can adjust while still getting the right end effect just by knowing your dog.

And can I just say… keep calm and drink on! Okay really I just need more people to join my 4 pm happy hours.

[LyonsFamily]

that's right. I live about in the middle between Lansing and Flint.

If you want a second opinion of a trainer, I'm just outside of Flint, by Lapeer. Cheryl Carlson at Cher Car is in St. Johns and has a ton of experience with working dogs and behavioral issues as well.

[Mobil]

If you want a second opinion of a trainer, I'm just outside of Flint, by Lapeer. Cheryl Carlson at Cher Car is in St. Johns and has a ton of experience with working dogs and behavioral issues as well.

thanks, Stephanie, I know right where you are. We are just outside of Owosso.

Husband and I just had a serious talk and he is adamant that despite starting the medication, his unpredictability means we need to find him a new home. He feels the danger to our kids is too great, especially not knowing how he will react to the meds; and the task of constantly monitoring both him and the kids all day every day would be a near impossible feat. He has a lot of reasonable points, as heartbreaking as it is. I'm going to place an ad on Rescue Me and hope that someone who feels confident in his or her ability to turn him around can give him the kind of home that he needs to have a good life that isn't full of fear and anxiety.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue with the plan outlined by Dr. Hop.

Also, I'd like to avoid having him be adopted by someone who has nefarious plans for him. What kind of adoption fee should I post for him? Would a no fee adoption be a bad idea?

I'm sad.

[johninny]

i mentioned earlier trying to locate a shepherd rescue organization who would take him, work with him and find him the right home - a much better way [ for Delco, especially ] of finding the RIGHT home.

in the rescue thread, someone posted a DS currently with ''border collie rescue of minnesoto''. if you cannot find a shepherd rescue nearer to you, start with them and see if they can direct you to an org that would be right. there is always some chance they might themselves provide his interim home.

in any case, such organizations have expertise in dealing with these situations and have experience and contacts for offering damaged shepherds their best chance. otherwise, even if you find a home for him, he would eventually likely wind up in a shelter, which is an environment that would do him further damage from which the ''shelter'' system would not allow recovery.

edit - just thought that surely/hopefully your behaviorist knows of such a shepherd rescue group that could take him. i just think that trying to adopt him out directly - with fee or with no fee - would likely be a death sentence for Delco sooner than later.

[Mobil]

Dr. Hop told me that the way the laws work in Michigan, even if he were accepted by a shelter (I've contacted some), we could still be held legally liable if he were to bite someone.

GSD rescue in MI won't take him because he's not purebred. One rescue down below Ann Arbor is full, and the Southwestern GSD rescue won't take dogs that need rehabilitation. I asked for resources from those places as to if they could direct me somewhere that could help, and none of them could.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Oh no!!!! I'm so sorry! That is not an easy decision.

I would be legally aware as you explore your possibilities. That law sounds BS to me. I have never heard of an owner relinquished dog biting someone and the past owners being held liable. I'd check into that because there's a clear distinction between owner relinquish (you give up your rights to property, said animal) and boarding (temporary custody but no property transfer, owner still retains rights). Just a quick google search turns up some interesting results.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddus ... n.htm#id-7
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmist287_321.htm
http://www.855mikewins.com/dogbite-atto ... -bite-law/
http://dogbitelaw.com/statutory-strict- ... e-law.html

If you do surrender Delco, you are not responsible if he bites since he has been surrendered and therefor not your property. The laws apply to being on your property it seems.

As for shelters, besides a humane society, here's some links of Michigan wide shelters dealing with GSD. My geography is horrible so forgive me if these are all way far away.
http://germanshepherd.rescueshelter.com/Michigan
http://www.agsra.com/listings.html

Now, one thing to warn you of, I know Massachusetts has a viscous dog law where if an owner knows their dog will bite or has severe aggression, if they give the dog away to a third party without informing them of the risks and being honest, they can be liable. I couldn't find anywhere in Michigan law that specifically said that, but I would be wary of giving Delco to a private party without some sort of legal document that 1) transfers the property (Delco) to the new owner and 2) releases you from liability because both parties agree you have informed them to the best of your ability about his behavior. This sort of thing is common in the rescues here in TX, but between private parties I'd want that extra security.

I am only a stickler for this because of the horror stories I've heard from the PSA group. You're trying to do the best for Delco given the circumstances but you must also legally protect yourself because people can be idiots. I'm certainly not trying to scare you, just make sure you're aware if you do decide to adopt to a private party rather then a rescue so you can protect yourself.

This is not an easy decision to make. My heart and thoughts go out to you! May I ask where you got Delco from?

[Mobil]

Kira, thank you so much for all of that. I've spent so much time on google that my h.
head was starting to spin.

We got Delco from a shelter in northern Indiana.

[Dutchringgirl]

You mean you're not supposed to be tipsy by 4 pm????

And can I just say… keep calm and drink on! Okay really I just need more people to join my 4 pm happy hours.

4pm??? What takes you so long??? IThalie has her head in the liquor cabinet at 11am

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I like to pretend I'm socially obligated to remain sober until 4 pm. I'm not but it's a convent delusion. Truth is I haven't found a good breakfast cocktail yet. But that doesn't mean there's not a little something in the afternoon coffees!

[LyonsFamily]

This shelter in Indiana you got the dog from, do they not have a return clause or first right of refusal?

[Mobil]

This shelter in Indiana you got the dog from, do they not have a return clause or first right of refusal?

I think they might, but they are shitty and I don't trust them not to adopt him out to someone who shouldn't have him or just put him down. the lady there gave me her cell number and begged me to call her personally if there were any problems. In hindsight, that's fishy, because when I asked like what kind of problems, she said nothing specific, just anything. It makes me wonder if she knew. And she'd told us he was good with kids and cats.

And if he has to be put down, I am going to be the one there to comfort him when he goes; I don't want him alone and scared.

[Dutchringgirl]

i agree on following your gut as to returning him, at least you know enough not to just dump him and risk him getting really abused. Its better for him to stay with someone like yourself who will do the best for him.

[Mobil]

Just received this report from MSU:

PROGNOSIS:
Guarded to poor.
There is a study indicating that approximately 10% of puppies may be genetically proposed to fearful or anxious
behavior. We do not know what Delco's puppy personality or early life experiences were; though, it is suspected that
he has a genetic propensity for fear, anxiety, and aggression. As such, anxiolytic medication may benefit Delco's
treatment plan; however, aggression is not curable even with medical intervention.
The liability and burden of owning a dog like Delco is great. Due to his large size and your family dynamic, which
includes children, safety management is of the utmost of importance. Should you wish to pursue treatment, our
immediate plan will include confinement and continued use of the muzzle to promote the safety of your children.
After this initial period of "lockdown" and once we know what effects medication may have for Delco, our goal will
be to safely and cautiously work on Delco's interactions with your children. Safety will remain the primary goal, and
we will always work to avoid high risk situations. Realistically, cases of aggression require lifelong strict safety
management.
It is recommended that you consider seriously whether Delco is appropriate for your household and family. At any
time, should you decide that the management and liability of owning Delco is too great for your family, Dr.
Hopfensperger would 100% support your decision to remove Delco from your household. As discussed, euthanasia
is a very reasonable and humane option should you feel that the shelter from which you obtained Delco would not
appreciate the serious nature of his aggression and his limited options for adoption.

After I read it, I went outside to bring Delco back in, carrying the leash and muzzle. Mobil trotted out. Delco came up to me for a pet and nuzzled me, then licked Mobil on the head. Before I could muzzle and leash him to bring him back in, he attacked the pup and then grabbed and shook one of the cats. I got him calmed and muzzled and leashed and inside the library. It's double gated now.

He's being euthanized in the morning.

[Raven]

My heart breaks for you and Delco. There is something internal at work there that transcends fear-aggression, based on your last post.

I agree !00% with your reluctance to return him to the shelter. I had a similar experience with an adopt...what they said combined with what they didn't say spoke volumes.

It's best to send him over the bridge than risk further pain for him by rehoming him or for your family if he were to stay.

It's hard to be there, to send them over, but it's an awful thing we have to do, regardless of the reason why. Thank you for wanting to be there for him when he crosses.

Hugs...for healing your heart.