Bad playtime behavior with other dog...need help!!

[JesusFreak]

ok, so this might be a long post, sorry in advance. I have a dutch shepherd puppy named apache. He is almost 5 months old now and i love him to bits!! He is so smart and growing so fast. Anyways, i also have a small jack Russell terrier mix named scooter. He is about 13 pounds last measured. He is a rescue (got at 10 months old, now 4 years) and was not socialized. This has caused some problems including aggression toward other dogs, little kids, guys, and other fears.

At first the two got along great. Scooter could show little 8 week old apache whos boss and they had a ton of fun playing. Soon however, apache got 3x scooters size and now scooter does not have fun. He now is trying to actually fight with apache. Apache thinks they are still playing and is totally clueless. Apache has gotten way to rough with scooter, and doesn't even feel it when scooter tries to get him to stop biting. Apache knocks him around and goes crazy around scooter. Basically whenever the two see each other, scooter instantly tries to bite and fight apache, and apache tries to play. Both stop listening to me, and get way overstimulated. When they are alone without the other they are both awesome dogs. Apache is super obedient and responds quickly to whatever i tell him. Scooter listens to what i say and is calm and sweet.

Ok, here is where it got really bad. Today, the two were in the yard fighting/playing and apache bit scooter in the back of the neck so hard it bled. not serious, but next time i could be. Its really both their faults, but i really can't have apache killing or seriously injuring scooter. they are both my babies, and love them both a ton.

I really need some advice on how to train them not to play since that doesn't work for them, especially as apache continues to get bigger. My last resort is a shock collar on both. I really don't want to do that, but this is a serious problem that needs to be address soon. I dislike shock collars and don't want to use one, so please if you have a better answer or any advice, i'm all ears. Thanks in advance for any help.

[Dutchringgirl]

allowing Scooter to show apache who is boss was the first mistake, now he thinks he should be boss and now that apache is bigger and dosnt want to be "bossed around" is starting to stand his own ground.

Puppies should be on a leash at all times when not in a crate so you can show him the ropes and learn the rules as YOU are the boss, not the other dog. JR have small dog complex anyway so you are starting in the negative with that.

they should not be together all day with free reign, the pup should be either in a crate or an xpen so you can keep an eye on things and the JR can do what he wants.

It not their fault, its yours, you are the human in charge, I know you dont know what to do yet, its okay, but dont blame the dogs for being dogs.. Its great that you came here for advice.

It sounds like you have two great dogs and you need to learn how to set them up for success.

You dont need a shock collar yet, lets get you some good training first.

They are not to be together 24/7

pup is to be on a leash and under your control, or in a crate, or xpen when you need to do something and cant have him attached to you

The JR needs to learn to sit/ stay as well or to be put up when you need to work with the pup. They both need some GOOD Obedience work.

Work on Sit / stay for both, you can use a dog bed or mat so they each have a place to go when told to "down"

They need to learn "out" and "Leave it"

They should not play together freely, they can interact while the pup is on the leash so you have control if it starts to look like its going south. Or you can grab the pup out of there when its already bad.

Learn the body language of dogs as well, that will help you see what is going on with both of them so you can be pro active.

A harness would be good to keep on both of them so you can grab one of them out of harms way. I had Sadie in a harness for a long time so I could just grab her and pick her up.

Socialization is a human term, dogs dont socialize the way we do, its not that big of a deal, it will be more about you being the guardian and teaching them what you want from them and what is okay and not okay in dog terms.

Sadie was never "socialized " since I dont believe in that and she gets along fine with the dogs I want her to get along with, I over see her and stop her from doing things I dont want her to do, or i watch them and let the other dog set the ground rules but over see in case it looks like it will go bad.

[JesusFreak]

Thanks for the answer!

Apache is in a crate when i can't supervise, but i stopped doing a leash a couple weeks ago because he does good off leash...i guess it needs to come back
yeah, scooter has a definite small dog complex. I will begin working on the commands you mentioned. Scooter knows sit/stay, but when apache is around he doesnt obey. both know the down, go lay down (to their kennels), come, and heel. I will work on the stay with the pup, and teach the out and leave it commands. I like the idea of a harness.

well, thanks again with your help. I have really been loving training, though this is my first dog i've actually trained to do anything other than sit. I'm 15 and had dogs before, but didn't really work with them. I'm learning so much with apache and am excited to learn more!! thanks for answering me...yesterday i was pretty worried and freaking just a little with the blood...i'm calmer and more rational now, lol

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Yeah I second what Lisa said. Doing OB with them both, building a strong foundation, then slowly introducing each other as distractions (two people to help with this unless one has a very, very, very strong place command) while doing OB will help. There's a lot of YouTube videos and articles you can read about dog body language, but also take time with each dog to learn THEIR body language. My dude naturally carries his tail higher than the traditionally accepts "relaxed" position, which every single behaviorist has told me is a warning flag, but he's completely relaxed and happy and his carries his tail higher than some other dogs. He also gives off faster and subtler "going to snap" signals than other dog. Remember the biggest thing about dog body language is taking everything in as a whole - just because one is wagging his tail doesn't mean he's happy - and learning that like humans each dog may communicate less or more obviously/slightly different from each other. So learning to read as a whole and taking into consideration personalities can help.

[Dutchringgirl]

Thanks for the answer!

Apache is in a crate when i can't supervise, but i stopped doing a leash a couple weeks ago because he does good off leash...i guess it needs to come back

Yes, put him back on until you are 100% certain he will be okay.

yeah, scooter has a definite small dog complex. I will begin working on the commands you mentioned. Scooter knows sit/stay, but when apache is around he doesnt obey.

Get back on this and let him know under NO circumstances is it okay for him not to obey.

both know the down, go lay down (to their kennels), come, and heel. I will work on the stay with the pup, and teach the out and leave it commands. I like the idea of a harness.

well, thanks again with your help. I have really been loving training, though this is my first dog i've actually trained to do anything other than sit. I'm 15 and had dogs before, but didn't really work with them. I'm learning so much with apache and am excited to learn more!! thanks for answering me...yesterday i was pretty worried and freaking just a little with the blood...i'm calmer and more rational now, lol

with good constant, and consistence is the key, you should be okay with them.

[Stacy_R]

I'm not going to chime in with a bunch more advice, because you have a lot to cover with Lisa's advice. However, I will say that this will more than likely be life-long management for you...I speak from experience. What I mean is, don't let up on management/training or let your guard down just because they seem to be getting along at a certain point. They will never be BFF's and Apache will probably try to push Scooter's buttons at times. I have to manage Tyson with my 13 y.o. min pin...they hate each other...always have. Just keep your expectations real, and you'll be fine. and keep us posted.

[Joxgirl]

Good advise Lisa thank you will be using this today. Placed puppy on a harness for a few reasons. One being so I can grab her away from the other dogs. Thank you