Hip Dysplasia

[vneerland]

They have no set limits or anything for that, but at least all breeds get evaluated in exactly the same way and are not given ratings according to their breed. What you see is what you get. I don't agree with the way the KC registers dogs for breeding etc, but I do like the BVA system because its the same for all breeds. I think it gives a better indication of whats going on with the dogs hips as you get to see both individually rather than just as one combined score. I think it allows breeders to make a more objective decision about whether to breed their dogs or not.

Does it give a better picture of what is going on? I am not convinced. In this system, you are doing well as long as you are leading the pack. You say the do not score related to breed, but I think they do. Your score goes up as the number of marginal or dysplastic dogs in the genepool increases. And so as long as you are not as dysplastic as some others, you're doing good?

For example.. my GSD.. she's coming up for 3 now, but she was hip and elbow scored at 18 months old. Her elbows were 0/0..but her hip scores never got sent in.. the vet advised against it, her right hip was fabulous, really nice and tight, but... her left hip.. unexpectedly she had a really badly developed hip. It wasn't through bad breeding though, her mum stepped on her as a puppy and we didn't realise it had caused problems within her hip and the muscle had developed in the wrong place.

That is a possible theory. But it could have been an oops in the genes too. Where two sound (enough) dogs manage to combine all those less desirable genes and cook up one that displays the worst of both parents combined. I have had a pup what was very much stepped on as a tiny little baby -broke her leg- but her hips are still sound, though she is now >10 and has arthritis. Either way. You decided not to breed your bitch and I applaud you for it.

It's the breeders who are ruining the dogs by breeding from poor dogs. If people were more objective and less emotional when it comes to this sort of thing, health would improve much quicker. This is why I like the DS breeders as generally only those with good or above get bred, same as with the scores, generally its a B or above..these are people who actually care about the future of their breed

Oh I so wished that you were right. I am not as optimistic concerning breeders choices in our DS breed.
I am still shocked to see that the DS in the PennHip list that started this thread, scores no better than the GSD. That is a nightmare scenario as far as I am concerned. Can a few good breeders save the breed? Will it be enough if some of us make better choices, and the rest just multiplies anything with stripes?

[Violet]

Your score goes up as the number of marginal or dysplastic dogs in the genepool increases. And so as long as you are not as dysplastic as some others, you're doing good?

I agree, no system is perfect, I just like the clarity this sytem has, maybe it's because I'm used to it. I like being able to see the individual scores for each hip because then you can see if one has more dysplasia than the other, which I haven't seen in other systems, breeders still try to hide that though by using their combined score and not saying each individual hip score. You do get a breed average, but at least we know that 0/0 is the best we can get for every breed, same as A, A1,OFA excellent etc. I know for me once I get to breeding I will be only using dogs of the lowest scores I can get, it's the only way forward. I think maybe I'm slightly optimistic about breeders of DS because the majority my partner and I have been in touch with.. in NL.. have been very devoted to their breed and only breed from the best.

These scoring systems are really only a guideline so that breeders can make a better choice on who they breed to who and why. It's why researching lines is so important.

It's interesting really as I was talking to my lecturer the other day about something similar regarding how human's have bred dogs, cows, pigs and chickens etc and how we expect perfection from our animals. Yet us humans get along fine and just deal with any bone problems and issues that come up within our own species, and there's no restrictions on us breeding lol

The truth of the matter is, whilst the best breeders do their best to ensure all health tests are adhered to etc and do the best they can do.. there will always be people out there willing to buy an inferior specimen from someone who doesn't care so much about health because it's the cheaper option, thus they have a market and so will continue to breed their dogs. Maybe if the general population were a bit more aware of what they were getting there would be less of a market for poorly bred dogs and breeders would HAVE to breed better to meet the consumers needs.
Getting together with other good breeders who care about the breed is the way to go and the general public need to be more educated of what they should be looking for in a good breeder and how these systems work. But not everyone realises that breeding in itself is very much a science and some refer to it as an art. It's highly complex and mutations and anomalies will pop up from time to time it's part of nature, it's the breeders job to ensure as few anomalies appear as possible.

( btw this is a subject I could talk about for hours )

[vneerland]

I think maybe I'm slightly optimistic about breeders of DS because the majority my partner and I have been in touch with.. in NL.. have been very devoted to their breed and only breed from the best.

Now I know that your are way optimistic. There are very few breeders in Holland that I would accuse of using the 'best' for breeding. Maybe that stems from the fact that I do not think a whole lot about their gene puddle, other than for decorational use. They know that's the way I think about it too, not to worry, I am not saying anything here that I would not say in Holland. But while there are enough breeders who use sound dogs, there is not even a mandatory hip rating that the members of the national breed club (NHC) need to pass in order to be listed with a club approved litter and I know that a fair (B) rated hip still get used, no questions asked. I am not saying they are not devoted. They are passionate about their dogs, but I personally would not own one, passionate or not. There is just not enough under the hood for me. I guess I am trying to say that 'best' is relative to what criteria you use.

[Marjolein]

I just found out that in more countries it is allowed to breed with bad hips I think it really is up to the buyer to check this, ask for official documents! In Holland it is really weird, we tried to change it a couple of years ago, voted for obligatory hip x-ray before breeding. votes were 50 for, 50 against. So our chairman at the time had to decide: no obligatory x-ray I fell off my chair right there But In Germany you must do lots more, including HD ED check, charctertest, confirmation, brindle test etc. Not all is usefull (brindle) but hey, at least we know about the health.