Dutch Shepherd Forum

So, you are saying a 26" DS is acceptable for the breed standard? I see a lot of these BIG DS at the UKC conformation shows.

I was talking about the allowed noted deviaton (in cm) for the Belgians.

And yes, I think that a DS should ideally be within a certain range, but it is not a disqualifying fault if they would be taller, while that, admittedly, should not become the norm.
I do not wish for a male to be 57 cm at the withers, no matter what the standard allows. I'd much rather have a 66 cm male instead. But of course, I do not select dogs for decoration only and having to do a job (and impress the opponent) is part of what I look for, and might not be jiving with the ideal in the standard. If they are otherwise fairly typey though, I have no issues, whatsoever with a few cm taller dogs.

been busy, just discovered this thread, first of all, have you asked Pauline about publishing those two pages of her book? I'm pretty convinced you didn't because I think I know the answer

About the size, if a dog totally fits the standard, but is a bit too big, or a bit too small, this is no problem (in europe anyway) because we have so little breeding stock, that you will have to use those too. Just keep in mind what the litter mates are like, and what mate you choose.
Dingo is too big (by 2cm) but all his littermates are, according to standard, ideal size. So genetically you will not get only big dogs. Certainly not when you use a fitting (smaller, and smaller litter mates) female

About Mal and DS, they started out the same... the biggest diffenrence you might be able to see in 2 dogs that are according to standard (note: hardly any dog will be perfect to standard!) is that a DS should be lenght:height 10:9 where a Mali should be square 10:10
Also, over the years they have developed a different "look", I find that hard to explain, but you will see a difference between a fawn FCI DS and a FCI Mali, Mali will have a somewhat "pointier" snouth.

All of this is not very relevant in the US where you have mainly KNPV lines, these are all mixes, and many not just DS an Mal, but some also include Tervueren, Great Dane, and mixes of any type that was suitable for the job.

Marjolein wrote:About the size, if a dog totally fits the standard, but is a bit too big, or a bit too small, this is no problem (in europe anyway) because we have so little breeding stock, that you will have to use those too. Just keep in mind what the litter mates are like, and what mate you choose.
Dingo is too big (by 2cm) but all his littermates are, according to standard, ideal size. So genetically you will not get only big dogs. Certainly not when you use a fitting (smaller, and smaller litter mates) female

I had been thinking about the standard, and realized that a a 57 cm male would be laughed at. Wouldn't you agree Marjolein? Regardless of what the standard allows, you know that a small male would be judged on his lack of size. Be honest, you do it yourself. (You know which male I am talking about too...you always make remarks about him being small, regardless of whatever talent he might possess to make up for it) Without passing judgement there may be an allowed range in the standard, but that does not mean that the breed fanciers are going to accept a 57 cm male, since they even have issues with a 59 cm one.

vneerland wrote: I had been thinking about the standard, and realized that a a 57 cm male would be laughed at. Wouldn't you agree Marjolein? Regardless of what the standard allows, you know that a small male would be judged on his lack of size. Be honest, you do it yourself. (You know which male I am talking about too...you always make remarks about him being small, regardless of whatever talent he might possess to make up for it) Without passing judgement there may be an allowed range in the standard, but that does not mean that the breed fanciers are going to accept a 57 cm male, since they even have issues with a 59 cm one.

Whaha, I just love making a remark about that Frenchie because "certain people" icluding yourself, react to it
In fact I have used a very small male for the B-litter. Ivil is fairly big for a female (59cm) and therefore I picked Shadow, who is only 56cm !!! His father Zebbe, also is a smaller compact dog. I was trying to make up for Ivil (and her mom and her littermates) being quite long and tall (high on the legs) by using this male. (charchter cam first tho, he has more power in him than many FCI have...)
Also, because of the presence of both Zebbe and Shadow in the ring, you can still win with a small dog, because they have very nice temperaments (yes some DO judge that too) and stunning looks. In pictures you will never see that Shadow is so small, because it all "fits". But breeding Ivil was hard for him as she is much bigger

Marjolein wrote:Whaha, I just love making a remark about that Frenchie because "certain people" icluding yourself, react to it
In fact I have used a very small male for the B-litter. Ivil is fairly big for a female (59cm) and therefore I picked Shadow, who is only 56cm !!! His father Zebbe, also is a smaller compact dog. I was trying to make up for Ivil (and her mom and her littermates) being quite long and tall (high on the legs) by using this male. (charchter cam first tho, he has more power in him than many FCI have...)
Also, because of the presence of both Zebbe and Shadow in the ring, you can still win with a small dog, because they have very nice temperaments (yes some DO judge that too) and stunning looks. In pictures you will never see that Shadow is so small, because it all "fits". But breeding Ivil was hard for him as she is much bigger

I doubt your remarks about his size are only inspired by your desire to razz. Said dog is mainly judged by his size, not by his accomplishments that rise well above his flaws in the standard. I think that a working dog or at least a working breed should have more substance and so yes, admittedly, I look for more substance myself, but in that, I would never have used a 56cm male without working titles, even if he had more under the hood than some others. I will say that that's the beauty of breeders though. We all get to make our diverse choices and somewhere amidst that, some nice dogs will be produced.

vneerland wrote: I doubt your remarks about his size are only inspired by your desire to razz. Said dog is mainly judged by his size, not by his accomplishments that rise well above his flaws in the standard. I think that a working dog or at least a working breed should have more substance and so yes, admittedly, I look for more substance myself, but in that, I would never have used a 56cm male without working titles, even if he had more under the hood than some others. I will say that that's the beauty of breeders though. We all get to make our diverse choices and somewhere amidst that, some nice dogs will be produced.

I get that You wouldn't have used a well proportioned 62 cm male without working titles either But my goals are somewhat different, for now anyway. It's a long way from where I start to where I want to go, gotta try stuff.
About Frenchie's size, I would have to agree that for a working dog, his size is not ideal, but hey, it's hard to get it all right all the time. He can work just fine, but he looks a bit too cute. If you use a subtantial female, looking at his lineage, there will be very nice dogs from it. I found him interesting, just not in combi with my female, both charachterwise and physichal.
Any suggestions are welcome thought busy searching for a next mate...

Marjolein wrote:been busy, just discovered this thread, first of all, have you asked Pauline about publishing those two pages of her book? I'm pretty convinced you didn't because I think I know the answer

About the size, if a dog totally fits the standard, but is a bit too big, or a bit too small, this is no problem (in europe anyway) because we have so little breeding stock, that you will have to use those too. Just keep in mind what the litter mates are like, and what mate you choose.
Dingo is too big (by 2cm) but all his littermates are, according to standard, ideal size. So genetically you will not get only big dogs. Certainly not when you use a fitting (smaller, and smaller litter mates) female

About Mal and DS, they started out the same... the biggest diffenrence you might be able to see in 2 dogs that are according to standard (note: hardly any dog will be perfect to standard!) is that a DS should be lenght:height 10:9 where a Mali should be square 10:10
Also, over the years they have developed a different "look", I find that hard to explain, but you will see a difference between a fawn FCI DS and a FCI Mali, Mali will have a somewhat "pointier" snouth.

All of this is not very relevant in the US where you have mainly KNPV lines, these are all mixes, and many not just DS an Mal, but some also include Tervueren, Great Dane, and mixes of any type that was suitable for the job.

No I don't think I know who Pauline is or her book. I like large dogs, 85-100 pounds. I know most DS's even KNPV lines usually don't get to 90lbs and if they do, that they will breed him with a smaller female. Well since I want a larger DS the female will need to be normal sized or larger herself too. This was a little hard to find until I came across Kole Mountain Kennels and Working Duthcies (kampftrieb kennels). I like Carlos from Working DS and Bor from Kole Kennel. Carlos is my favortite, He is EXACTLY what I would want my DS to look/act like. They have large breed stock and it seems that they breed for normal-large pups too. Of course since I am also looking to make sure the dog can work, becasue that is the most important. I had heard of them mixing other breeds but I would not really think of a Great Dane producing offspring that was capable of protection. Here Great Danes are known to be gentle giants but maybe German Danes are not.

You have to stop generalizing. In my club we have mostly mals. The adults vary in weight from 45lbs to 100lbs! We have mals from dutch lines, french lines and Belgium lines. They all breed to different standards. We only have 2 dutchies right now, my 11 month old female who is currently a solid 65 lbs and another 2 year old who is a much smaller framed dog weighing about 55 lbs.
When I first started researching these two breeds I read all the articles that stated that Dutch Shepherds are not as drivey as mals and they have an off switch that malinois do not have. This was my main reason for going with the dutchie. Since then I have witnessed first hand that all dogs are different! My female who is out of hardcore KNPV Lines is everything a malinois is and then some! She is over the top in every way. The malinois that are in my club all have different temperments and personalities. Some are very hard dogs and excellent workers, though all of them have more of an off switch then my dutch. There are also plenty of malinois that have the same temperment as my dutch and I am sure others that are more then she is. Best advise I can give you is to focus on what your goals and expectations are for the dog. Then choose a breeder who has been breeding a long time and that knows their lines inside and out. Then let them choose the puppy that they feel will be best for you.

DogGirl_95 wrote: I like large dogs, 85-100 pounds. (....)This was a little hard to find until I came across Kole Mountain Kennels and Working Duthcies (kampftrieb kennels). I like Carlos from Working DS and Bor from Kole Kennel. Carlos is my favortite, He is EXACTLY what I would want my DS to look/act like.

I hope you're not under the impression that Carlos is a very large dog.

Choochi wrote:

DogGirl_95 wrote: I like large dogs, 85-100 pounds. (....)This was a little hard to find until I came across Kole Mountain Kennels and Working Duthcies (kampftrieb kennels). I like Carlos from Working DS and Bor from Kole Kennel. Carlos is my favortite, He is EXACTLY what I would want my DS to look/act like.

I hope you're not under the impression that Carlos is a very large dog.

Indeed, carlos is a about 64/65 cm.Bor is bigger. Btw you do know bor's father is the littermate of carlos?
Further carlo from jeff gamber is probably something you like.

Choochi wrote:

DogGirl_95 wrote: I like large dogs, 85-100 pounds. (....)This was a little hard to find until I came across Kole Mountain Kennels and Working Duthcies (kampftrieb kennels). I like Carlos from Working DS and Bor from Kole Kennel. Carlos is my favortite, He is EXACTLY what I would want my DS to look/act like.

I hope you're not under the impression that Carlos is a very large dog.

Lol even if he is not 90 lbs, I like his stocky build and massive head, especially the last two pictures. I really like his coat too..I have noticed some dogs will have barely any undercoat and some have a pretty thick coat. I like the thick coat but that is the last of my concerns, plus you can't even tell when they are pups.

Selena wrote:

Choochi wrote:

DogGirl_95 wrote: I like large dogs, 85-100 pounds. (....)This was a little hard to find until I came across Kole Mountain Kennels and Working Duthcies (kampftrieb kennels). I like Carlos from Working DS and Bor from Kole Kennel. Carlos is my favortite, He is EXACTLY what I would want my DS to look/act like.

I hope you're not under the impression that Carlos is a very large dog.

Indeed, carlos is a about 64/65 cm. Bor is bigger. Btw you do know bor's father is the littermate of carlos?
Further carlo from jeff gamber is probably something you like.

There will always be exceptions for me and Carlos is definetly one. I think he is just wonderful, even if he is a little out of my prefered weight or height. It's funny because I the picutres (to me) Carlos LOOKED bigger, especially the head. Bor looked average except for one picture I saw of him and he was built like a nucleuar-bomb- proof-TANK. I had only glanced at the pedigree's of the dog but I don't find it surprising they are related, they share the same stockiness. Since Jeff only gave one photo, two videos, and no info on Carlo's size or height he looked average too me. If he really is as large as Bor I will definetly think about EWDK9 when ready for a puppy.

DogGirl_95 wrote:No I don't think I know who Pauline is or her book.

I am pretty sure the question was not directed at you. You did not post the page from her book on the list.

DogGirl_95 wrote:
There will always be exceptions for me and Carlos is definetly one. I think he is just wonderful, even if he is a little out of my prefered weight or height. It's funny because I the picutres (to me) Carlos LOOKED bigger, especially the head. Bor looked average except for one picture I saw of him and he was built like a nucleuar-bomb- proof-TANK. I had only glanced at the pedigree's of the dog but I don't find it surprising they are related, they share the same stockiness. Since Jeff only gave one photo, two videos, and no info on Carlo's size or height he looked average too me. If he really is as large as Bor I will definetly think about EWDK9 when ready for a puppy.

Bor is about 70 cm, when he lived here a bit heavier than now at megan's. Think he's about 40 kg now (meg?).
Our wibo is the littermate of carlos, and father to bor. Also carlo is related ( ont top of my head: mothers side tommy luijken) x carlos.

Dog Girl, I know there are all of about 3 of the same pics you see of Carlos every where you look on the net, but here's a pic of Carlos off Jeff's website:


I'm almost not sure if that is Carlos as the dog looks so different from the other pics, but it's posted in Carlos' gallery.

People who I know who have seen Carlos in person always tell me they are shocked at how short he is, although he is supposed to be stocky and build like a pit. I have never met him in person.

Here's another one I have saved, I don't remember where I got it from but most likely Mike's site:


My female Dutchie is out of Carlos and she has a very sleek thin coat with longer hairs (although not long). When she was a puppy she looked a lot like her father, thick and fuzzy, but as she grew she got more lanky and her coat completely changed as she lost her puppy coat. My male who's mom is a daughter of Carlos' brother Wibo has a completely different short and super dense fuzzy teddy bear like coat. None of the other Carlos' kids I know or have met have that fuzzy looking coat that Carlos has in the pics you tend to see of him.

Selena wrote:
Bor is about 70 cm, when he lived here a bit heavier than now at megan's. Think he's about 40 kg now (meg?).
Our wibo is the littermate of carlos, and father to bor. Also carlo is related ( ont top of my head: mothers side tommy luijken) x carlos.

At the moment he is chunky.. Probably around 95lbs. But when the weather goes back to miserable heat we will slim him down again.

To the original poster I would begin to seriously consider factors other than looks such as temperment and the purpose that the dogs have been bred for when selecting different lines that you are interested in and what would be most combatible with your lifestyle.

Choochi wrote: My male who's mom is a daughter of Carlos' brother Wibo has a completely different short and super dense fuzzy teddy bear like coat. .

Athos is out of maya x rudie 2 son, right? Maya is dushi (grietje x wibo) x wibo, so multiple times wibo.

MeganBays wrote: To the original poster I would begin to seriously consider factors other than looks such as temperment and the purpose that the dogs have been bred for when selecting different lines that you are interested in and what would be most combatible with your lifestyle.

BEST ADVISE EVER!!! When I was in high school and thought I knew everything about dogs, I was planning to breed my GSDx to a coyote. Didn't happen (thank goodness), but there is a lot of information out there and idealistic thoughts are just that, idealistic. Pick the dog for its temperament and performance.

Christie M wrote:

MeganBays wrote: To the original poster I would begin to seriously consider factors other than looks such as temperment and the purpose that the dogs have been bred for when selecting different lines that you are interested in and what would be most combatible with your lifestyle.

BEST ADVISE EVER!!! When I was in high school and thought I knew everything about dogs, I was planning to breed my GSDx to a coyote. Didn't happen (thank goodness), but there is a lot of information out there and idealistic thoughts are just that, idealistic. Pick the dog for its temperament and performance.

You were going to breed your GSD to a Coyote? And people think I'M a crazy teenager wanting these "killer dogs", Their quote not mine! Again that is why I am going to join the Atlanta working dog club and see which of the dogs I got along with/liked the best, I am going to visit breeders/owner too so that I can see how what lines I like the best.