Dutch Shepherd Forum

thank you, Karen.

on an occasional basis, i think just the [MILD] taste of garlic or onion [ unless that taste is from powder, etc.; like Stacy said: ''never''] - as opposed to a lot of bits of garlic or onion will probably do no harm - tho some dogs are repelled, so maybe they are extra sensitive [ vulnerable ]. if i occasionally want to share such adorned fish or meat, i just scrape off the obvious bits of underground bulbous veggies.

i think your use of sweet potatoes is great. i rotate between them and squash or pumpkin. also use green beans --- and peas, tomatoes, kale [ which is pretty constant as i have a crop in the yard most months [this winter being an exception!]. i add LOTS of oregano to almost everything they eat except kibble - because i have lots and because it is so good for them.

Xander loves his sweet taters. Actually he loves all veggies. I also use green beans, garden peas. He isn't picky. He loves food.

Sharon, most of my reading on this type of topic dates from several years of reading vet school journals and whole dog journal before such things were on the www. when i moved out of my house in manhattan in 2005, i threw away almost all the journals, all of which i had meticulously retained. i do have a great memory though for things that interest me. [ when i worked in business, i had at least several thousand phone #s at my disposal in my brain. my assistant is still amazed how many i remember and has fun by asking me if i know a number that he will otherwise have to look up; i have seldom, if ever, failed him.]

anyway, i do look at various sites as a refresher course occasionally. [ ALWAYS reading research papers concerning new drugs, new procedures, and disease research re human health and that often makes me curious about how that might relate to the canine world.] as i have said, i recommend looking at ''foods your dog should never eat'' every so often just to have that stuff firmly imprinted in clear view in the brain as opposed to lurking in the subconscious and deep pools of memory. --- but i do not think that is the kind of reference you are talking about. but webMD [ as OPPOSED to petMD ], where the ''foods your dog should never eat'' magazine-like compilation resides, is usually a good source of reliable and detailed information on stuff of all sorts - for people and for dogs. other sites likely to have reliable, unpolluted, and modern info are veterinary medicine.com, peteducation.com, and, on this topic, petpoisonhelpline.com [ which someone here recently availed themselves of on the phone for personal help in an emergency].

the trouble on the web that you describe mostly comes from 2 sources, *blogging and *sites with a point of view, often driven by commercial or other interests, but sometimes just closed-mindedness. so if i'm searching for any actual and useful info [ whatever the topic ] i skip entirely the sites that do not make sense as purveyors of reliable info in that field.

btw, the effects of any ONE dose of garlic would be at their most severe 3 to 4 days AFTER ingestion. think how complicated it gets judging the bad effects of garlic when piled on one day after another.

Raven wrote:My husband was never on-board with going RAW, though when recently and politely said that some evening meals would be, he was fine. He feeds Thor in the morning, so I think that was the motivator for him being against it. Maybe Greg (is that his name?) thinks he'll have to turn into a canine chef?

My husband was the same. I portion the meals and bag them. All he has to to is open and dump. Problem solved.

Here's some of the links I found about home cooked food… I can't find the super detailed one but I'm still looking…

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 568-1.html
http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/vetendors ... -3132.html
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/to ... -homemade/

Random food for thought articles:
http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news ... o?id=10666
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 62414&pg=1

Ok so it's a go, I'm mixing sweet potato, squash, egg, ground beef, this week in the morning and dry kibble in the afternoon until his kibble is done.
So you’re saying whole chicken no cooking and no bone removal? Then the week after that fish (salmon).
This will be enough to keep him healthy? 4 cups for a dog that's 75 lb. He's had no stool difference (I can't believe I'm putting this down in a forum)

Heather

HeatherH wrote:So you’re saying whole chicken no cooking and no bone removal? Then the week after that fish (salmon).

No....Where was this????

Right now, you're giving him cooked food for a meal then kibble for another. Are you talking about adding RAW into that plan???? Not sure you'd want to do that. (?) The experts need to chime in here.

I don't know about any necessary time lapse between kibble and cooked food meals, but if you are feeding RAW one meal and kibble in another, they need to be separated by at least 12 hours due to how the two are digested in the body. But there's a "science" behind feeding RAW...and I'm still learning.

Sorry, I can confuse the crap out of the simplest things.

The idea is to get him on raw food. Nothing was cooked. He will eat raw veggies any day. He even ate the sweet potato raw.

I feed him twice a day I split up his food. It's a habbit I've done for all my dogs. 1 in the morning before I leave and 1 when I get in in from work. I have an entire bag of kibble left (Proformatrim for adults) for over and I thought I'd wean him off the kibble.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea of uncooked food. I was always told that they would get worms or make them sick. Old habit die slowly with new knowledge.

The reason for the switch was because I've read the back of some kibble and been hearing in the news all the recalls on animal pet food.

Heather

why even cook the food? cooking alters the proteins, vitamins, fats, and minerals in a food. This alteration can make some nutrients more readily available and others less available. Cooking can alter fats to the point of being toxic and carcinogenic and cooked proteins can be altered to the point where they cause allergic reactions whereas raw proteins do not. (Clark, W.R. 1995. Hypersensitivity and Allergy, in At War Within: The double edged sword of immunity, Oxford University Press, New York. pg 88.).

Raw food is digested as a protein and kibble is digested as a starch so that is why they need time in between.

as a caution just checking: have you checked your ability to freeze the raw salmon at temperatures as described earlier that are low enough to kill the deadly parasites - or is the salmon arriving frozen and you have full confidence that it has been frozen for the proscribed time at the required temps?

sorry to rain on the raw festival [ and i'm the one who praised sweet potatoes ], but dogs should not eat raw potatoes, and raw sweet potatoes, in particular, are harmful to the pancreas functioning properly. i forget whether it actually damages the pancreas [ i think not ], but definitely causes malfunction. white potatoes have their own set of problems raw.

in general, veggies are many times more nutritious for humans and dogs when cooked lightly [i.e., with tomatoes, it is 10-12 times more nutrition when cooked ] and many inedible or dangerous plant materials become ''good'' when cooked, all the more true for dogs. so continuing to cook his veggies no matter what you do on the raw meat front will benefit him and is occasionally necessary. of course, carrots are better nutrition cooked but helpful in cleaning teeth when raw. greens vary though herbs like rosemary, oregano, thyme, and fennel, definitely better in their natural state.

The salmon arrives frozen. I'm looking at the vitamin you sugested Johnny. How much do I give him daily? I couldn't find it on the website. Like I said he's 75 lbs.

Heather,

I'm a worry-wart about diet, so I spent a long time reading the do's and don'ts behind RAW and I'm still lacking confidence and knowledge. No sooner do I think I have a handle on it, I learn something I should've known. Right now, he's fed kibble at 4 A.M., raw carrots, green beans, peppers, etc. (no cruciferous veggies) for treats, and RAW for dinner any time after 5 P.M..............but I'm still struggling with the whole 80/10/10 ratio for meat/organ/bone.

There's a number of decent RAW food for dogs forums out there (or RAW sub-sections within forums) as well as books.

As a result of the discussion (in this thread or another), I'm opting out of feeding salmon. I'll get his omegas from salmon oil.

HeatherH wrote:
The idea is to get him on raw food... I have an entire bag of kibble left (Proformatrim for adults) for over and I thought I'd wean him off the kibble.

There is no need to "wean" a dog from kibble to a raw diet. Like Lisa said, RAW and kibble are digested differently which is why there needs to be an extended time in between feeding the two. Raw will go through the system in about 4-5 hours whereas kibble takes 8-9 hours.

In Pat Lazarus book, "Keep Your Dog Healthy the Natural Way," under the topic of food combining he states:

"How you combine food groups can be crucial to your dog's health. Why? The digestive organs secret enzymes to break down food so it can be properly used by the body. When carbohydrates and proteins are eaten at the same time, the protein enzymes go to work first, and the digestion of carbohydrates must wait. While the carbohydrates are waiting around to be digested, they ferment and release toxins in the body.

Proper food combining might more aptly be called not combining foods: Give only meat (or other heavy proteins such as eggs or milk) at one meal; give carbohydrates (fruit & grains) for the other meal. Vegetables, though may be given with either grains or heavy proteins."

HeatherH wrote:I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea of uncooked food. I was always told that they would get worms or make them sick.

This is a myth.

HeatherH wrote: So you’re saying whole chicken no cooking and no bone removal? Then the week after that fish (salmon). This will be enough to keep him healthy?

Ummm...no. I don't think anyone said that. In fact, it is advised to feed multiple proteins. And make sure that whatever meat you are feeding him is minimally processed. Watch the sodium content...nothing over 100 mg of sodium per serving.

There are 2 schools of thought on RAW, but the formula for feeding has 2 basic premises that are accepted by both schools of thought (I'll address the 2 groups later):
Food: 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ.
Portion size: 2-3% of ideal adult body weight.

So let's unpack these 2 basics:

#1. Percentages: as far as the percentages go (80,10,10), raw feeders have a mantra: "balance over time." This means that not every meal has to consist of 80,10,10. As long as your dogs are getting the correct percentage balanced out over the course of a week or so, you're fine. If you try to make sure every meal has the exact ratio, you will drive yourself crazy...unless, of course, you have the time...which I do not.

#2. Portion size: you want to start off with 2-3% of ideal adult weight. Keep in mind that this can be more or less depending on activity level, age, medical factors, etc. This is just a starting point and can be adjusted if weight gain or weight loss is needed (due to exercise levels, number of treats given, etc, etc).
I feed all 3 of my dogs 2.0% 2x per day (because they all get snacks/treats/bones).
Tyson weighs 50 lbs and gets 2 meals, each being 8 oz.
Baby Ruth (mini-schnauzer) is 13 lbs and gets 2 oz, 2x per day.
Snickers (min-pin) is 6 lbs and gets 1 oz, 2x per day.

So...keeping all of that in mind, here is how I make it easy:
When I purchase their food, I make sure that I will have time either that day or the day after to spend some time cutting, weighing, and bagging. *side note...this is much easier with larger dogs rather than smaller because it is easier to eyeball 8+ oz at a time rather than 1 & 2 oz at a time. In fact, many raw feeders with larger dogs don't weigh at all. Anyway, I portion all the meals out into ziploc baggies and put them in the freezer. I will take 2-3 days worth of food out of the freezer at a time and stick it in the fridge so it can thaw. At meal-time you just unzip and dump. I usually let the meat sit out (either in their bowls or in the baggies) for a couple hours to let it get to room temp before I give it to them.

There are suppliers who sell pre-made raw. They get all the ratios, grind it up, and freeze it and then all you have to do is slap the right amount in your dog's bowl. While this is convenient, it really isn't cost-effective for larger dogs. That being said, I do buy pre-made from a specific supplier to have on hand for those "just in case" times.

There are 2 schools of thought on raw:
1. Prey style and prey style only. This means no veggies or fruits. EVER. And never feed ground meals. They are pretty strict and are very passionate about prey-model.
2. Your basic raw group. This group believes that raw is the way to go, but everyone and every dog is different so there's not a lot of judgement (unless, of course you feed some dreadful kibble like 'Ol Roy. ). Some feed raw only, some are partial to prey-model, some make a veggie glop, some feed a mixture of high quality kibble & raw....

To each their own...you have to do what you feel is best for your dog.

I am in the second group (obviously, since I keep pre-made raw on hand ).

The key to raw is this: know thy dog, and don't over-think it.

I hope this helps.


EDIT: This is a really good book for beginners: RAW Dog food, Make it Easy For You and Your Dog By Carina Beth MacDonald.
http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Dog-Food-Make ... 1929242093

Dr. Karen Becker also has a RAW feeding book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/098253 ... rd_i=typ01

Heather, are you referring to the Platinum Performance CJ? do you have it? the portion is 1 tablespoon per 30 lbs of weight, so 2 heaping tablespoons [ 2 1/2 ]. there is a little blue scoop in the container: 2 1/2 of those per day. with algal omega-3 and pine bark extract, it is such great stuff!

Sharon, that is so funny, as the discussion of salmon this time around got me interested in the possibility of feeding raw salmon. want to read the links thoroughly - which i have not done yet. it is tricky, as the danger of not getting the right FREEZE is so dangerous. is your source of wild salmon proprietary or something that others can avail themselves of?
Heather, and what is your source of salmon? is it wild? and can you confirm for yourself that the time and conditions under which it has been frozen meet the criteria necessary for killing the parasites? otherwise, you will need to ''deep'' freeze it if you have that capability.

Johnny: No I'm ordering now, I thought I'd find it in the store but no. I don't like buying things on line but I bit the bullet. I saw the tab on directions.
Salmon frozen. I'm just using the “No Frill " Seaquest frozen salmon.
As for sodium in his diet. I didn’t put any in. This is why I’m looking at the supplements. I just thought meant they ate it naturally, so it wouldn’t be anything like oil, salt pepper garlic preservatives.
You should have seen my kitchen after words. Dutch was happy because he was the clean-up crew.
I through everything in the food processor packaged it up in containers and put a weeks’ worth in the fridge.

As for books and on line I'm looking for better receipies, reading as much as I can.

Heather

HeatherH wrote:
As for sodium in his diet. I didn’t put any in.

My point was not about adding sodium in, it was about checking the packaging of the chicken you buy. A lot of chicken is enhanced with sodium. Check the nutrition label and make sure that the sodium content is not over 100 mg per serving.

HeatherH wrote:
"How you combine food groups can be crucial to your dog's health. Why? The digestive organs secret enzymes to break down food so it can be properly used by the body. When carbohydrates and proteins are eaten at the same time, the protein enzymes go to work first, and the digestion of carbohydrates must wait. While the carbohydrates are waiting around to be digested, they ferment and release toxins in the body.

This is why when I mess up Sadie has nasty farts

OMG Dutch's backended farts while snoring. OMG and that was on kibble your telling me they'll get worst? OMG!

Sadie's digestive system is very temperamental, it always lets me know when I mess up. We have to put on the oxygen masks. When I had her on Honest Kitchen, it was soooooooo bad I would wake up gasping. Dummy me didnt realize the one I was feeding her had cabbage. Nothing bothers Thalie, she can eat anything, any time and she never farts, NEVER !