dogs are not toys, consulting a trainer please support! Help im not giving up!

[NewlyDutched]

Leerburg.com.

Strange, I didn't feel at all abused when I started posting here...

[Raven]

Raven wrote:
Leerburg.com.

[Stacy_R]

I'm just now catching up.... wow

[Raven]

If your dog growls towards someone, give him a correction so he knows that's not okay.

'

Beware taking the growl out of a dog. It's communication. Take away their growl, they just might be left with their bite. Just sayin'....

And in some dogs, a correction in the face of a trigger can escalate matters. And is it fear or a trigger? And how does one know with a new dog? And I'm not convinced, in this situation, that the dog--if one really exists, this time or even just a bit ago with yet another dog given up after one day--that any dog wouldn't be reacting to a (how do I say?) questionable environment/owner-driven behavioral cues.

Regardless, IMHO, one needs to observe the dog, learn the dog, listen to it, before jumping in with SOP. Too many unknowns. Also, one needs to monitor themselves and know the cues they sending.

I'm not arguing methods; just offering opinions, for what it's worth.

[Dutchringgirl]

I agree Raven, The growl, like the bark is the dogs way of saying something, its up to the human to figure out what that is, does the dog not want that other person/ animal near its human? These are protection dogs and when the dog growls its doing its job. People want protection dogs, then correct out of the dog what the human wanted in the first place.

[Raven]

These are protection dogs and when the dog growls its doing its job

Even if we're talking strictly protection breeds, a growl can mean something beyond "protection." Fear, for example. Or a warning to the owner: "What you just did was unfair." Etc.

So getting to know the dog first is part of the package and is important. What makes it tick? How does it learn? What does this mean and what does that mean? Blah-blah. But if you don't know dogs, don't know how to read them, can't change approach/can't see an approach isn't effective, and treat every dog under the philosophy of a dog-is-a-dog-is-a-dog, well....

[cordeliandemon]

im not sure about every DS so i can only speak for mine, but growls are very important in our day-to-day goings on. if he wasnt allowed to growl it would cut out about 90% of the "conversation" between me and the two dogs when im alone with them, and i wouldnt know whats going on in their heads.
the vast majority arnt ill meant or malicious, just communicative.

these can be simple things like one dog telling the other to back up, ones energy is too high for the situation and it needs to chill, demon may think kodas being too rough with me, one dog is too close to the others bed, general "stop being a prat" cautions ect.

id rather have two dogs growling out the ears than quiet dogs who snap at each other out of nowhere, the same goes for their behavior around people. (demon has no problems with being possessive of food or objects to my knowledge, but theres been just one incident in his life where he got a can of cat food in his mouth and i asked a relative to retrieve it. when they approached he let out a blood curdling snarl so i decided to get it myself- without a peep from him. if the snarl didnt happen it would have been a different story, hes learned a "drop" command since)
id also agree that if you dont personally know the dogs inner workings and cant tell whats being said, diving head first into corrections would be detrimental, maybe dangerous.

[Raven]

it's important to work on socialization also.

We had a discussion on here recently and we found that people define socialization differently. I guess at least some seemed to see it as: they want their dog to get along with everybody and every animal. To be a social butterfly. (I'm waaaaay over paraphrasing this!) To that point, if you don't know what you're doing, and you don't know the dog is fearful (or whatever), this brand of socialization can reinforce the fear or whatever problem you're trying to overcome.

I guess a lot comes down to: know the dog, know yourself, and work with the dog--not against it.

Our first brand new car, years ago, was a car neither of us really wanted--it wasn't us. The husband started going nuts outfitting it, making me tell him: STOP! IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE A MUSCLE CAR!)

Some dogs will never like other dogs. Or cats. Men who wear leather. Whatever. But...there might be a reason--and maybe it was something WE did unknowingly--so we try fix them. Sometimes, it is what it is.

And to your point, a good trainer--an intuitive trainer--indeed, can be so helpful. I think they might be too few and far between. (I made a big mistake hiring a personal "respected" trainer years ago.)

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

As an add on to the growling, humans have a very bad habit of NOT wanting dogs to growl when it is a natural communication tool for them. Humans perceive it as a threat and universally ONLY a sign of "gonna eat you". DS naturally make many noises that could be classified as growls but are not, yet if another owner hears them they think they're "he's gonna eat me" growls, AKA aggressive growls. My guy has a hair trigger - if you hear him growl, a true growl - you have 0.2 seconds to respond before he reacts. Always been this way and if he truly growls it's a quick correction and he stops - problem solved under a second, so fast most people are just unnerved by what happened. Again, to me, and because I know him, this is 90% a behavioral response that does not need to happen. This is usually a response that I correct him for IF I have eyes on him, meaning, I see what he's growling at. If I don't, as in my back is to whatever he's going off at, I turn around before deciding to correct him or let go of the leash. Meanwhile he'll sit there and make growl-y sounds at me as I pet him or play tug or try to get a prized possession out of his mouth that sound nothing like his true growl. These are communicative noises, as as his "not sure about this" growl or "hey there's something in the bushes I'm not sure I like" growl. We as handlers learn to distinguish these and react accordingly for what they are.

A growl in public at say an old lady or a child is absolutely correctable in my book only if I know the dog, know it's not a fear/anxiety response, but an honest aggressive move on the dog's part. Again, this all goes back to what everyone is saying about understanding the dog and knowing where it's coming from and not taking away a form of communication - it's not making excuses for the dog, or its possible bad behavior (reactivity), but rather understanding the root cause and addressing it through training.