Dutch Shepherd Forum

Well i was just going to post about how Xena had turned a corner in her fearfulness toward other dogs. SHe was not nearly as leash reactive and had begun to look to me for treats wen she saw a dog on leash approaching. She EVEN started meeting some of the nice and not so nice dogs on our walks~ play bowing and being puppy submissive... So why the past tense?

Well today we were on our morning walk and saw the two Portuguese water dogs (not very friendly) and their owner (even less friendly) up ahead. They were off their leads. I didn't worry too much about it as we were well behind and usually when he sees us he calls them, they come and he puts them on lead. Xena was being her new improved quiet and non reactive girl! He pulled them over to the side of the road (I assumed to put their leads on and let a truck pass). WELL I was wrong. Once the truck passed he let them go and just then they saw us. They both came charging at us. Xena started barking and panicking. I pulled her behind me on the lead and tried to block them. They all ended in a snarling barking jumble anyway, but no real teeth... and I yelled and screamed and kicked at them. The milder of the two left and I started going for the more aggressive one. He backed off. I was REALLY angry now and you could just see him saying, "whoa, lady, I was just bluffing!"

The guy said, "oh, sorry. He gets an attitude sometimes." I told him that I was working on my dog not being fearful and reactive and this little episode was not going to help at all. But he just said, You go ahead, we will stay behind you.

Well Xena was able to gather herself up and do pretty well the rest of the walk even greeting one of the less friendly dogs that we are working on being friends with. (I don't know why she has taken a liking to this dog, but she is determined to help her get over her fears, too.) But then after a rest, and maybe some thought she was back to her old reactive self all afternoon. She lunged and barked at every dog she saw... The Chow in Lowe's te mid sized dog half a block away, the tiny chiuahua in the red sweater. All of them.

I am just feeling so defeated. Maybe tomorrow will be a new day and she will go back to having more confidence around other dogs.

So sorry you had this setback, Lauren.

Unfortunado, this kind of dog reactiveness is a very long term issue, and as you saw for yourself, it only takes one incident to set you back.

Why are you working on her being friends with dogs, instead of simply ignoring them? You can always find one or two dogs that she really likes as occasional playmates, but for most of the dogs in the world, they should just become irrelevant to her. Dogs need things to be very black and white; something is always wrong or always right. What you want is for her to keep her focus on you when around other dogs. Period. (At least, that's my )

Sounds like you did a good job of trying to protect her, body blocking and kicking . When I see anyone ahead of me with unleashed dogs, I simply yell, "leash your dogs!" No explanations, nothing, just something they can easily perceive (freaking dolts to begin with ). Sounds like your neighbor was just in his own little world, and didn't even realize you were there (same folks don't tend to pay any attention to their surroundings or other people/dogs/etc.)

Good luck! Hope you're able to recoup quickly.

leih merigian wrote: Why are you working on her being friends with dogs, instead of simply ignoring them? You can always find one or two dogs that she really likes as occasional playmates, but for most of the dogs in the world, they should just become irrelevant to her. Dogs need things to be very black and white; something is always wrong or always right. What you want is for her to keep her focus on you when around other dogs. Period. (At least, that's my )

I know that you are absolutely right. And for a while I was working on totally ignoring. Then all of a sudden she started really wanting to meet and sniff, and I thought well, if she gets over the fear, then the paying attention to mom will be easier. Her walks were easier on both of us. She was more confident and playful.

The little poodle that she has decided to like is also being worked on for reactivity. I would be fine if they never met. But for some reason, she really wants to pursue this friendship and it does seem to be paying off. There was a time that they could not sit calmly 30 yards from each other. Now she can get loved all over by the poodles dad, make smiley eyes and gestures to the poodle and not get bitten.

I would be very pleased and happy if we could reach focus on me and not on dogs, skateboards, bikes etc. i just don't know how to get there from here. Ideas??

I also teach Sadie to ignore other dogs not be their friend. The only dog Sadie needs to be friends with is my parents Basset and that happened right away. I dont have a street like you to walk on, and on main street dogs must be on a leash, so when I am approaching another dog I pull my girls off to the side and make them sit and do nothing as the other dog passes. Treats in hand to keep them looking at me, until the dog is far enough away. I am also far enough so if there is a lunge we are far enough to not have a problem. As Sadie gets better, which she has, I wont pull that far off the walk but still enough that if anyone lunges there wont be a confrontation.

I am so sorry to hear about your setback! It's so frustrating when some clueless person ruins your hard work.

Zodiac was dog-aggressive toward other large breeds when we first adopted her and we taught her to just ignore other dogs as the others have mentioned. By working with our trainer she has gotten much better and is now fine off-leash around other dogs as long as they don't try to dominate her, but we still do not allow her to meet other dogs while on leash because it makes her more anxious about protecting us. When we pass people walking with their dogs we just move to the other side of the road as we pass.

I hope Xena gets past this incident and continues to improve!

I am sorry to hear as well, and I can relate. Sugar goes back and forth with her progress as well.

Glad we have this forum to ask questions, read and learn, share and vent..just keep at it (I know you will).

I think the ignoring other dogs is good advice and that is something I am working on as well. Of course it makes it real hard when the other dogs are off leash and come running over (either friendly or unfriendly). People are so dumb...I get the "its ok, he's friendly" all the time as their dog is running over to mine.

That is so incredibly frustrating! What an idiot.

Well, dog gone it! Some dog owners are so terribly irresponsible (the same ones who have children, mind you). One of my pet peeves is being out with one of my GSDs at a show or in public and someone else have their totally uncontrollable dog on the end of a flexi-lead. Then they start visiting, mouth a-going so then their brain shuts off, the dog pulls over into every other dogs' space. My old GSD girl would nail them; no blood, just body-slam and pin them. Thank goodness, this only happened a couple of times over all those years of traveling to shows. From then on, we would give a wide berth to these idiots. Now, with my Aussie and Cattledogs, we go to herding events and everyone's dogs are usually loose and I have yet to see a fight. Freaks me out.

Lauren wrote: I would be very pleased and happy if we could reach focus on me and not on dogs, skateboards, bikes etc. i just don't know how to get there from here. Ideas??

The standard approach involves counter conditioning and desensitization. I think you're already doing this to some degree, tho not sure how methodical you're being about it...

Basically, you start at whatever distance your dog can be from another dog(s) without any reaction, and being able to remain focused on you, and you treat (high rate) for focus on you. You move very gradually closer, continuing this process, and eventually, you'll be able to walk by other dogs/owners and keep her focus on you.

She's still very young (Iess than a year). It will take time. If you move too close too quickly, you'll know it because she won't be able to do it without reacting . If/when that happens, back up some and start moving again as she's able.

Also, it helps to have a few things you can do with her to keep her focus on you. Just plain eye contact is a good one (you should have a cue for it if you don't already), and nose touches (to your open palm), sits, etc. With other dogs, my routine with Geyser is to "see that dog?" (yes she does ), "OK, eyes" which is her cue to look at me. I also have her come and sit in front of me, and keep her back to the other dog(s), and work on eye contact. It gets to the point where when you encounter another dog, whatever routine you establish, she'll do automatically. (You really need to break their focus on the other dog(s).)

Also, if you're in a sitation that you can't control or that is too highly charged, turn around and walk back the way you came, etc., but don't let her practice the unwanted behavior, whatever you do.

Leih, thank you for the detailed ideas. I am doing some of this but you are right that "methodical" may not be the way to describe my way of going about it. I need to set up these situations... that is tough to do.

I really feel that she needs to be able to interact with other dogs in a healthy way to make her more stable long term. I think that she is capable of achieving this at this point. That does not mean that she ever needs to interact on lead and certainly not when we are working. She does have to be able to ignore everything else when I ask. But life is full of surprises and her go-to reaction to seeing dogs should not be fear/aggression.

I have a sit, down, stay, wait, over, place, ready, watch me, touch, whats that?, heel and side. "Leave it" is still hit or miss depending on how good (or scary) the thing is that I am asking her to leave. The problem is that i am not setting up these situations so I can't slow down the other dogs approach while i work on distance before reactivity .

I have worked on skateboard that way but my son tires of it long before I get where we need to be. I really need to keep a journal so that I remember how far we have come AND exactly where we are going.

why do you feel that being able to interact with other dogs will make her stable? Thalie is as stable as they come and she has been taught to ignore EVERYTHING. When we are on walks, hikes or out on the mountain bike and I encounter another dog, she dosnt do anything, just goes past them like they are not there.

Take your time, no need to rush, a bit a day is good. If your son tires, then work on something else or go play with her. It wont happen overnight.

Dutchringgirl wrote:why do you feel that being able to interact with other dogs will make her stable? Thalie is as stable as they come and she has been taught to ignore EVERYTHING. .

I think that ignoring dogs and environment is great. It is a wonderful working goal, and I hope and plan to get there! But having to ignore something because you are so afraid and freaked out by it is not the same as being indifferent to it. It feels like more of a time bomb thing to me. It may well be that I can never get her past her fear of dogs and then I will continue on with the ignore... If I can get her comfortable first, however, I think it will make for a more whole, confident and trustworthy dog.

It is kind of like if they are terrified of cars, they can learn to ignore them and work near them, but part of their energy and brain is being spent blocking that discomfort out. Or, like when my husband finally turns off the radio, I heave a sigh of relief... part of me was subconsciously spending energy and gaining stress blocking that out. It would be much better if I just liked having the radio on. Does that make sense?

Probably just pie in the sky, but I really think it is possible with this girl.

It makes perfect scene. If its attainable or not, dunno. Just take your time, dont push or rush. If you are freaked out and scared of something then you cannot ignore it. I think its more of desensitizing. Like having my kids around all of the time, I dont "hear" them anymore.

Ive spent time working with horses too and there is a desensitizing period first if there is something that scares them before they can be indifferent to it, so you do have that extra step. Slow short workouts with them so you dont over whelm them either.

Lisa, I think we are saying the same thing. Thanks for the encouragement. She is so special to me, one of those one in a lifetime dogs... I just want she and I to be able to have a lifetime of fun and activities together without worry.

Wish I could say that I don't hear my kids anymore....

I do think we are on the same page, sometimes over the internet it gets garbled. Go slow. Thats the best way. you will have a lifetime of fun.

Laruen, just keep at it. Dog parks can be a good place to work (way outside of them, of course<g>), and also, consider taking classes just for this reason. In a class situation, the other dogs are on lead and under control, especially if you don't take a beginner obedience class<g>, and that's a good way to work around other dogs and have her find that she can be focused on you, while in the vicinity of other dogs, and they can't harm her in any way. We've taken several classes just for this being-able-to-work-around-other-dogs aspect.

Also, if you have any skateparks around you, that's an option too for working thru those prey-drive motion things<g>. Just remember to always start at a distance that isn't an issue and move closer gradually.

I guess my last thing is this: I don't blame you at all for having the goals you do for her, and by all means, work towards them, but in the end, temperament is temperament, and there is only so much we can do to nudge it in a positive direction. I wanted a confident DS, and didn't get one, so I work constantly to nudge Geyser towards the positive end of that continuum. It works in many situations, but there remain some that will always turn her into a quivering puddle of terrorized pup. While I will always do what I can to help her with it, still, I have to accept that this is who she is.

I want to hear ongoing progress reports...you're doing great with her!

Yes Lauren you are doing very well with her and well said Leih

Here is a little update....

We went to a herding clinic yesterday. There were lots of dogs. Many Aussies and border collies, several beaucherons, 3 swiss mtn dogs, a belgian mal pup, gosh, so many other types of herding dogs as well. Well once again, Xena loved them all. What in the world is going on? She is fearful and reactive on walks, but here we are surrounded by dogs big and small, young and old, male and female and she just can't wait to meet them and play with them and roll around on her back to show how submissive she is....

What in the world? the only one she was fearful of was a Tervian (Sp) Shepherd. GORGEOUS dog, but he would stare straight at her even if he was working the sheep he would stop and stare.

And it was so nice to see her play with that 4 month old Belgian Mal puppy. She took turns being the trouncer then would lay on her back and let the little pup trounce her back. I bet that if we had two they would absolutely wear each other out. Of course that would mean 2X the training, food, care etc... still it's very tempting!!!!

Someday we are going to get a little male DS. I hope she still wants to play when we do!

Lauren wrote: but he would stare straight at her even if he was working the sheep he would stop and stare.

Well, there you have it . Direct eye contact is very assertive and dominant for dogs. For whatever reason, he was making a statement to her, and she was reading it loud and clear.

That whole situation at the herding place is so different from when you're out walking on the street. Context is everything . And, not context to us, but to the dogs (i.e., how they interpret it). Anyway, it's great that she can be so happy with dogs that she likes and gets along with. That means, too, that you don't have to work so hard to try to get her to like dogs . She likes some dogs just fine already. Pick a playmate or two from them, and set up playdates. Teach her to ignore the rest.

Having two is twice the work but they have each other to play with, I would not want to be Sadies playmate . Thalie at 9 years young still plays like a puppy, they run and chew on each other. When the day comes where you get your Mal pup, Xena will have a blast!!

Im so glad that she is having fun with the dogs there!