Dutch Shepherd Forum

I don't know who is on facebook, but Hanke Karreman has some great photos of DS herding sheep.

I don't want to copy her photos, so I'll post a link for anybody who might have access. If you can't see it, sorry.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =3&theater

Album:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 139&type=1

Beautiful photos.
I couldn't get them from the links but I cut and pasted her name in the FB search field and got to them from her own page.
Thanks for sharing!

http://www.facebook.com/hanke.karreman

Here is her direct link.

Hanke gave permission, so I will put a couple photos here (there are more than 100). The first 2 are training, the last is Hanke at an FCI herding test. She said she was thinking what to do next.

what beautiful photos. Wish we had someplace here for herding. Would love to take Odin.

My FAVORITE! Dutch shepherd doing what it was actually bred for. Doesnt get much more natural than that. Great photos. Thank you for sharing.

fantastic!!!!

thanks for putting them here...I'll never be a facebook member so can never see anything anyone posts that's linked that way

GSDNanny wrote:My FAVORITE! Dutch shepherd doing what it was actually bred for. Doesnt get much more natural than that. Great photos. Thank you for sharing.

ONE of the things they were bred for, Denise.
They were not only herders. They were also guard and protection dogs, and from the early beginning (less than 8 years after the breed was officially started) they were police dogs. Really! But the most quoted application by the FCI folks, for some reason, is the herding, yes.
And indeed, nice photo's in this link. I believe that might be the same trial that our list member "Ron" might have posted some pictures of a couple of months ago?

In histories of the breed, you will find them called "Jack of all Trades" (manusje-va-alles). They herded the sheep, brought cows in to the barn, pulled the milk cart, protected the smaller livestock, (e.g. chickens), watched after the farmer's children, and alerted the farmer when a stranger arrived on the farm.

I have not translated much of the book since last time I wrote about it, but there were a lot of dogs working sheep and the book goes into great detail on the sheep herding aspects of the breed. Here is an excerpt.

"What was the size of the area of the shepherds and their dogs? Reliable information concerning the years 1850 - 1880, the period when the sheep on the moors for the last flourished. In 1850 was 800,000 hectares or one quarter of the Netherlands then covered with heather. This were about 800,000 sheep heather. Estimates put the herds alone on the moors around 6000 sheepdogs." Allemaal Hollanders

CaroleBoaz wrote:In histories of the breed, you will find them called "Jack of all Trades" (manusje-va-alles). They herded the sheep, brought cows in to the barn, pulled the milk cart, protected the smaller livestock, (e.g. chickens), watched after the farmer's children, and alerted the farmer when a stranger arrived on the farm.

I have not translated much of the book since last time I wrote about it, but there were a lot of dogs working sheep and the book goes into great detail on the sheep herding aspects of the breed.

The book was published by the breed club, that at the time was of the opinion that a dog that would bite, had to be mean, nasty and unstable. Not hindered by any knowledge. And so they highlighted the abilities that they could endorse, not the ones they misunderstood or despised. There has been a tiny shift to more acceptance and understanding of the protection abilities of the Hollander. I have not read the newest book (feel it will be mostly the same as the old one) but of course, like all opinions, it is just a matter of what they want to highlight, not per se a complete presentation of what they really did.
I never implied they did not herd. I merely implied that labeling that activity as 'the original task', is too limited and does not do the breed justice.
Currently, there is a discussion on the Dutch HH list, about how to present the breed to a broader public, being that it is largely unknown and relatively unloved even in it's home country. It is a mere matter of how you want things to be perceived, not only of what is out there. Not all that different from writing a book about your breed.

I think there is too much emphasis on protection. Any one of my dogs will protect naturally. Every male dog I have owned, even my most people friendly lovable dog, has demonstrated this in a real life situation.

It's a basic trait of herding breeds to protect their "flocks".

What I don't like that the DS is thought of ONLY as an extreme working/police/protection dog. That's not their whole character, just the portion that some breeders are pushing to the forefront - even to the extreme. The breed is so much more than that.

Ah, I was hoping I would 'flush' you out, Judith. Where ya been? I know it gets redundant for you probably having to repeat so often the genetics, history, etc on the DS, hence my sneaky antagonism for a response. Seriously though, you have so much knowledge to share and I enjoy every bit.

The DS is truly versatile. I find all of this very interesting about the history and did not know how short a time span (8 yrs) there was in the breed designation to the primary purpose identification. From my own personal experience with my own DS, protection is first and pronounced on her versatility scale. Due to this, I have been a wimp in attempting to verify her herding skills because I adore my sheep!!

@Judith, you mention about the DS being relatively unloved in its home country. Is the DS just not popular there or has a bad rap or what is it do you think? If you'd rather not post publicly, feel free to PM me, because I am curious about this.

CaroleBoaz wrote:I think there is too much emphasis on protection. Any one of my dogs will protect naturally. Every male dog I have owned, even my most people friendly lovable dog, has demonstrated this in a real life situation.

It's a basic trait of herding breeds to protect their "flocks".

What I don't like that the DS is thought of ONLY as an extreme working/police/protection dog. That's not their whole character, just the portion that some breeders are pushing to the forefront - even to the extreme. The breed is so much more than that.

I second this, Carole.

Just watching Marco and his Mali friend running, I can see he was "built" for running and running fast. The Mali has to work much harder to keep up with him. Since he is "longer", he has more "spring" and accelerates much faster. All traits, I imagine, best suited for herding (well may be running down criminals as well ).

We have a lot of kite surfers on the beach and Marco was running parallel to one of them for about a mile. Thanks god the guy turned around and "brought" Marco back. He said, he is used to being chased by dogs, but not for long. When he looked over, Marco was still shoulder to shoulder to him. I should give those guys $5 to take Marco running up and down the beach.

CaroleBoaz wrote:I think there is too much emphasis on protection. Any one of my dogs will protect naturally. Every male dog I have owned, even my most people friendly lovable dog, has demonstrated this in a real life situation.

It's a basic trait of herding breeds to protect their "flocks".

What I don't like that the DS is thought of ONLY as an extreme working/police/protection dog. That's not their whole character, just the portion that some breeders are pushing to the forefront - even to the extreme. The breed is so much more than that.

I agree wholeheartedly.

GSDNanny wrote:@Judith, you mention about the DS being relatively unloved in its home country. Is the DS just not popular there or has a bad rap or what is it do you think? If you'd rather not post publicly, feel free to PM me, because I am curious about this.

From what I have read on Dutch Forums. People just don't know about them. There was a topic where somebody took her dog on a train and everybody wanted to know what it was.

I'm also curious about dogs in Holland...I'm very surprised that the DS isn't well regarded or known there!

So, what dogs are the common ones there, if not the DS?

@Judith...I had to laugh at your comments regarding the authors of that Authoritative Book . Seems there is so much of that going around...people publishing The Final Word without worrying about being tied to actual facts

leih merigian wrote:I'm also curious about dogs in Holland...I'm very surprised that the DS isn't well regarded or known there!
So, what dogs are the common ones there, if not the DS?

Same as here. Golden retrievers, German shepherds, etc.
A friend of mine had one of my DS pups, out in California. He was doing some SAR work with her. He runs into a couple of Dutch tourists, and they ask about his dog. He tells them it is a DS. They tell him there is no such a thing! You can walk around holland with your DS and the majority of the people will not know what it is that is traveling at the end of your leash. And that is just the short hair. If you run around with a rough coated or long haired dog, I suspect it gets even hairier.
@ Denise. There is not really a bad rep. Maybe a tiny bit due to the KNPV HH's, but mostly, it is because they are just unknown!

@Judith...I had to laugh at your comments regarding the authors of that Authoritative Book . Seems there is so much of that going around...people publishing The Final Word without worrying about being tied to actual facts

Oh, in this case, herding was an actual fact. But they conveniently left out part of the the other facts.
(and I can prove my version, but that's besides the point)
The complaint that there is too much emphasis on bite work, depends on what type of DS you prefer, I guess. It also depends on where you are, because in Holland, the larger contingent of FCI owners are not into the serious work scene, with a new but limited group that is enjoying various types of protection work with them. Herding is done even less than protection work, go figure. The KNPV population is all (bite) work, no show (obviously so! Lots of ugly going around) The notion that any herding dog will protect though, is a bit enthusiastic. I would not have a job if that was the case. My latest client, a lady who got hit in the head inside her house with her 2 year old GSD in the house as well, thought that she was safe too. The dog was nowhere to be seen when this occurred. And for the record. It is perfectly all right NOT to like bite work. It was, however, a definate part of the DS heritage, every bit as much as herding was. That's all I was saying.

No lie, they have goldens and GSDs? I can understand the GSDs, but...oh well, better not go there