Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hi my 5mnth old DS Raven (Only had her for three days) snapped and lunged at my 8yr old Westie Terra and nipped her neck! Raven is super sweet with the family and plays very well with my 3yr old nephew but for some reason she keeps lunging after Terra. At first it appeared Raven's aggression was because she was scared of Terra and believe that might still be the case but now Terra is scared as well. Terra has never been bit by another dog other than puppy play with litter mates and even then she was the aggressor. Please someone help us! Tell me what to do! She is scheduled for obedience and socialization with her trainer in the next two weeks but I need help now! If I can't get her to accept the older dog DH might decide to return her and I really love my sweetie

Sounds like the first thing everyone needs is a time out and regrouping.

Five months old can be strange time in a pups life, and for her to undergo all of the changes that she has in a matter of only 3 days... she needs things taken slower. She will likely develop a relationship with your other dog, but can't be forced into one. For now, I would not allow them to interact at all. Having a leash on her when out in the house helps control situations, but unless you can call your other dog away from her before she ever gets near, they can't be together.

I don't think kindergarten is necessarily going to be your only answer, and solving it over the internet isn't always productive. I would consult a trainer who will visit your home and help you address the dog and environment and set things up for everyone to be successful.

At a minimum, I would only allow them to be in the same room while both are on leash and being interacted with by a human. Both pups can be doing motivational obedience and learning that good things CAN occur when they are together. But no further incidents can be allowed to happen, as both pups learn from them.

A basket muzzle may be appropriate. You only want to use an open basket style - not a mesh or fabric one. Those inhibit the dog from opening the mouth all together (or only a tiny bit in the front which can cause more injury to another dog). A grey-hound style basket muzzle will allow you see all of Raven's reactions, but she won't be able to cause injury. Even still, this should only be an extra safely device. The goal would be to prevent future situations from occurring where she felt she needed to lunge - and teaching a mutually exclusive behavior like paying attention to humans for treats when you are stressed about the little dog.

I know it seems that Raven is the only problem in the situation, and she is being very inappropriate and getting more and more confident in her defensive reaction. However, it sounds like your other pup doesn't have a good understanding of appropriate social interactions either. Although she is "trying to be friends" by taking Raven toys and things, she also clearly hasn't gotten the fact that Raven wants space right now. It would be like going to someone's home and having them stand 3 inches from your face saying "I'm so glad to meet you. We can be best friends right? Wow, you smell good. Can we hang out. Want to go in the other room? No? OK, I'll stay right here with you." That is behaviorally inappropriate too.

Dogs need to learn appropriate ways of asking other dogs to back off. Dogs also need to learn when to back off and offer space to other dogs. I think you will need to work both aspects.

Christie is om the money, as usual. I got Sadie when she was 4 months and she was in her crate and away from Thalie for a few weeks until we all settled in. And like Christie said, leash and watch like mamma hawk.

Thank you Christie I have contacted her trainer and were setting up a home meeting so he can asses her. He has advised me to keep her crated as well until we all settle in. And you are absolutely right Terra does not speak doggie language.....and I've realized that even though she is bringing a toy she may be inadvertently challenging Raven with eye contact. I will try the muzzle you mentioned but only when outside for walks. Im not happy about muzzling her at all but at the same time I need to keep them both safe. And I will be watching like a mama hawk lol.
I have also started using Terra to help train Raven on small things like sit on command. I keep Raven in the kennel while this is happening and I tell Terra to sit (Raven watches like a hawk btw) when Terra sits I give her a treat then I repeat the same with Raven at first Terra was getting all the treats but then Raven figured it out and started sitting and waiting for her treat too lol! So I am going to try and have them both associate treats/praise with them being in the same room and hope that helps some as well. As for Terra I think she will benefit from a socialization class as well. I just want my girls to be safe, healthy and happy. Thanks for all the awesome advise.

mariposa34 wrote: I keep Raven in the kennel while this is happening and I tell Terra to sit (Raven watches like a hawk btw) when Terra sits I give her a treat then I repeat the same with Raven at first Terra was getting all the treats but then Raven figured it out and started sitting and waiting for her treat too lol!

it is really funny how the pup watches the adult! I did the same for Sadie and Thalie (9). I would give the sit command, Thalie would sit, Sadie would have a questioning look, then watch Thalie sit, then the light bulb went off in Sadies head and she would sit. Sadie learned alot from Thalie.

I guess that could be good and bad.....because Terra is so small I never really paid to much attention to her bad habits but now I am going to have to watch what she does and start correcting her too. It's one thing to have a 16 lb dog jump up on family members and another for 30+ of DS jump up on you.....I've already had Raven try to climb up into my lap like Terra.....I almost fell off the darn foot stool!

Some very good advice on here.

Seems as if your pup has not been around other dogs before? Or maybe had a bad experience? And as said before, this age is a scarey time anyway. Right now is critical though because this initial period establishes a foundation for those boundaries and routines in the future.

I have 2 totally neutral dogs that know the routine at our home and whenever I bring in train/board dogs, they pick up quickly from these two. It is amazing. This too is a method used by people who use their dogs for herding in practical farmwork. They put a pup with an older dog that is seasoned.

It is scarey for you too though, because you want neither dog to get hurt. I agree to get with a trainer who can look at this situation objectively and assist you. Sometimes it is hard for us when we are so close to the forest, we cant see the trees.

Good luck to you. Hang in there, you can do this.

Here is a few things I've tried and work really well.

Do things with both dogs, walk, throw balls to both of them and do some stool work. Something as simple as finding a book, make one dog stay (or leash to a door) and having that dog touch the book while giving out treats. Rotate this and it shows them that hey, you're fun! That way when raven shows aggression and you tell her no it's stronger because she knows she could lose that.

Walking and she is all over.. buy a prong collar.. if she doesn't listen.. snap it. She'll yelp but she'll get the idea rather fast. Usually snapping a regular collar does the trick, if not get a prong.

Please don't "snap"/ or yank on a prong collar.

prong on a puppy that moved in 3 days ago? eh? Try the other options first

OMG Im such a newb when you said stool work I thought you meant with poo......ahem.....LOL! I'm thinking I don't want to play with poopie.....

Actually Tia, I was thinking the same thing!

A harness may be good, then you can just grab her by the top and carry her away if she gets into a bad situation. A prong is too much for a young dog and should be used carefully.

I put a better picture of her up in my signature....notice how she looks soooo sweet and innocent? lol!

yes, so sweet and innocent!

Update two weeks later and my girls are happily stealing each others squeakies now instead of royal puppy rumble it's the puppy comedy hour with the Westie Terra trying to sleep in the big kennel while the Dutch Raven is squeezing her self inside the tiny kennel........

yippee!

that's great news!! yay!!

I'm so happy we bonded over......treats LOL! Well it worked and that's all that matters. Now if Raven would just figure out that she CAN'T jump up in my lap with her whole body like Terra can we will be good to go heehee secretly I love that :p

Awesome news. I'm glad they settled their differences and everyone is friends now!!

Most of my Dutch Shepherds think they are lap dogs! But then again, so does the 100# mastiff mix