Dutch Shepherd Forum

We're finally finished with all the testing related to trying to diagnose her exercise intolerance. Sadly, I remain without a definitive diagnosis.

After having done a variety of bloodwork and Xrays, checking out a genetic cause, arterial blood gas after exercise, a muscle test, and an echocardiogram, all of which resulted in negatives, we're back to focusing on the lungs.

The specialist recommended a bronchoscopy and lung biopsy, since she believes that Geyser is likely to have an interstitial lung disease, and wanted to check out the possibility of some kind of inflammatory process in the bronchial tubes. Well, she has zero symptoms indicating any kind of bronchial inflammation, especially considering that her condition and symptoms haven't changed in her two years of life, so I'm not concerned about doing that part of the test. And, while it would be nice to know if she has an interstitial thing going on in her lung tissues, which essentially boils down to the tissues being thicker, thus making oxygen transfer much more difficult, there would be no treatment for this. Given the cost ($2500) and putting her thru surgery for the biopsy part, I'm taking a pass. If there were something I could do for her if there were a positive result here, I'd do it.

The other possibility if both of these were to come back negative, would be some kind of mitochondrial disease, which refers to the energy-generating part of the cells. Alas, they don't have tests for most of these things, other than the one we already did.

This whole thing has been quite vexing and frustrating. I am sad that I can not do anything for her to help her condition and that we will not be able to have the agility competitioin career for which I brought her into my life. We will continue to train carefully in agility, for fun at home, but the chance of her developing heat stroke isn't worth it, as far as competing goes (that's the risk). Too bad, too, since she's awesome in agility (her weaves are to die for, and she's a calm, thinking, natural jumper).

We'll be focusing on K9 Nosework and Rally, and down the line, probably obedience, tho I've always found AKC obedience awfully boring.

Oh well...

I am glad that you did not find any big smoking guns that indicated the nature of her problems. You don't, after all, want your dog to be sick. Of course that is a bit contradictory, since you notice that she does have exercise intolerance. I assume I should not ask if you're sure that she is not just out of shape?
That the condition would not improve with more stamina? Were you told to beware of heat stroke, or is this something that you yourself worry about? You -thank goodness- don't live in Texas, where you could have 100 degree weather until mid September, so my question really is if you have to restrict her, or if you, as her loving guardian, chose to do so for her own good?

vneerland wrote:I am glad that you did not find any big smoking guns that indicated the nature of her problems. You don't, after all, want your dog to be sick. Of course that is a bit contradictory, since you notice that she does have exercise intolerance. I assume I should not ask if you're sure that she is not just out of shape?
That the condition would not improve with more stamina? Were you told to beware of heat stroke, or is this something that you yourself worry about? You -thank goodness- don't live in Texas, where you could have 100 degree weather until mid September, so my question really is if you have to restrict her, or if you, as her loving guardian, chose to do so for her own good?

I would put Geyser up against any dog on this forum, as far as fitness goes . I invest tons of time with her, making sure she's fit, which means letting her rest as much as she needs to during every exercise session. Every time my vet sees her, which unfortunately, is way too often, she comments on how muscular and solid and lean she is...so I am certain it's not an issue of just being out of shape .

She couldn't have more stamina than she currently does, given her condition. The only way she could have more stamina is if she could benefit more from the oxygen she breathes.

I was advised not to compete with her in agility. I asked why, and the answer was the potential for heat stroke. We've taken her temperature after a very brief work out, of say 10 minutes, which I did to induce her condition for the oxygen testing. They took her temp after she'd been resting for a while, and it was 105. When we're training and working at home, she can rest as much as she needs to (and I make her when she doesn't think she needs to yet). In competition, her drives would overcome any difficulty she might be experiencing, which could lead to overheating to a serious degree.

Of course, I limit her exercising to the coolest parts of the day. But, even in the depths of winter, she has these issues. Yes, I'm lucky we're not in Texas; the summers here are bad enough with high humidity and generally high temps (tho we don't stay in the 100s as long as you do!).

I guess I don't understand your first comment. I would love to know what this is, and for it to be something that I could treat in some way to improve her condition. As it is, I know she has something, and I know it causes this exercise intolerance and the potential for heat stroke if she gets too overheated, so to me, she is sick. She certainly isn't a normal dog. I guess it's all how you define sick and healthy

Whatever it is, it is congenital, or else, it resulted from some virus she had before she came to me, since she was like this from the very beginning (apparently, there are some viruses that can cause these kinds of effects that you wouldn't necessarily even know your dog or puppy had). In my ignorance of this whole area, I just thought it was her being a different breed from my working lines GSD, and hoped that she'd grow out of it, or develop more stamina in time, etc. By the time she was a year old and it was very clear that it wasn't something she'd grow out of or develop out of, that's when the penny dropped about the exercise intolerance and I started working with the vets to try to get it diagnosed. (And, in case anyone is wondering, yes, the vets have seen her while the condition has been induced by exercise and it is a confirmed thing; it's not just me saying she has this condition.)

Hey Leih,

I'm not sure if I should say congrats on not finding anything, or crap - sorry there wasn't anything definitive. I can only offer one thing and it will sound like voodoo. I produced a dog who seemed to suffer from Canine Malignant Hyperthermia. After any amount of exercise, she would have temps of over 108 (sometimes not registering on thermometers that top at 110) and normally she was 103ish. We ran a ton of tests through the neurologist before I was fortunate enough to speak with the vet who isolated the gene in labradors. Major revolution was - there is nothing that we can do.

From there, we started testing working dogs in various situations where they would be engaged in behavior and in drive. The temps the dogs showed were astonishingly high....which kinda made me feel better. But my dog was still way higher.

I talked to a holistic vet who practices Eastern Medicine while at Camp one time. She said "You know, you have have done everything. And modern medicine has really only been able to say 'Sorry, we got nothin.' Maybe just go a more holistic route and feed cooling foods."

So of course I was like "But its the muscle contractions that cause the calcium outpour that causes....." And she told me to stop over thinking it. Look at the whole picture - hot dog needs cooling foods. Since I had nothing to loose, I did. I put her on a bison based diet, with no heating foods at all - including treats. A month later, after working her, Matt suggested I temp her just to see - and she was normal. She had never, ever been normal.

At this point, she is 6 years old, full patrol K9 and running crazy agility and 4 miles tracks. So scientifically, I don't know what you would call it. Intolerance to certain food sources that is manifested in overheating? I have no idea. But it worked absolutely, and has continued to for years.

Just food for thought.

Actually, Christie, we're thinking along the same lines here.

My vet is a holistic practitioner, and we've talked about cooling foods and other Chinese herbs we plan to try, but wanted to do all the regular testing first.

We did try Chinese herbs that work for COPD in racehorses, and also, lung issues in dogs, but that didn't help. So, we definitely will be trying some other non-traditional things.

Did you dog have breathing issues as well, or just the high temps?

Wow, very interesting stuff.

Leih, sorry you still have no diagnosise. Like Christie, I just don't know what to say.

thanks, Chris. I guess, there's not really all that much to say. I just wanted to finish up the saga for those who've been following along with us.

leih merigian wrote: Did you dog have breathing issues as well, or just the high temps?

She would pant quite a bit, but I chalked that up to her being hot all the time. Even resting she was a 103 dog. The normal temp that she had after the diet change was the first normal temp she had ever had in 2 1/2 years. I was giddy.

Christie M wrote: She would pant quite a bit, but I chalked that up to her being hot all the time. Even resting she was a 103 dog. The normal temp that she had after the diet change was the first normal temp she had ever had in 2 1/2 years. I was giddy.

I can easily imagine how happy you were. Geyser's normal temp has always been, well, normal . 101 on the nose.

Now something else is going on with her . She developed a small lump on her right hind leg, at the back of the thigh, down near the joint, and in three days it's gone from grape-sized to golfball. Today, she suddenly is Miss Lethargic. Obviously, we go to the vet tomorrow. I hope it's something that's fixable and easy to diagnose.

Location of the lymph node? Kinda behind the knee? Any chance of her being exposed to something during the vet visit?

Let us know, I hope its nothing.

So sorry to hear about Geyser and her exercise issues
I don't have anything to add to the previous comments but wanted to let you know that you and Miss G are both in my prayers for an easy treatable diagnoses for the lump/swelling, and a successful holistic treatment for the exercise overheating problem.
{{{Hugs}}} to you both.

Oh Leih, another trip to the Vet, poor Geyser! You guys have really been through it this year. I'm so very sorry to hear all this. Could we be so lucky that it may be a reaction to a bug bite? I hope it's something simple like that.
Hugs from everyone.

Well, sportsfans, Christie rang the bell!

It's either an infected lymph node, which is fairly uncommon, or lymphoma. It will take 10 days to get the results on the cytology, and in the meantime, we're treating for the possible infection with antibiotics and anti-inflammatories for pain.

If it is an infection, there is no way to tell why or how she got it. It just is .

I'm kind of stunned at the moment, and am gonna go escape into a book. I don't know what I'd do without books; they've literally saved my life a bunch of times .

( I'm not one to borrow trouble. I"m not going to get all nuts about the possible lymphoma thing, and will just wait and see and deal with that if that's what happens.)

Thanks for everyone's support and caring. It matters.

Hugs from Odin and Kai. Keeping all our paws crossed.

Leih and Geyser, wishing you both the best.

I know this is far-fetched but just for info, a 43 yo male patient with our clinic had a heat stroke 5 years ago while on his job. Since then, he is totally heat intolerant and even the slightest exertion or exposure to high temps puts him into relapse. Just wondering.....

Sadie and Thalie will be thinking of ya!

Fingers and paws crossed in our household, but I have seen TONS of lymphs blow up from (what I assume) is a localized infection that the body isolates and deals with. We had a Weim in the clinic that had the small area of lymphatic tissue in its face swell up.....with nothing else resulting.

I am currently convinced that it will be nothing more than that. She stepped on something, got exposed to something.......whatever and it will go down in a day or two and leave you panicking (as I would).

Boy oh boy, I sure feel for you guys. Sugar and I send hugs and hope that G gets better soon!!!

Escape into your book