Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hello, everyone! My name is Cassandra and I have a two year old Dutch mix named Boris. I just recently found out he was part dutch after DNA testing him out of sheer curiosity. I had always thought he was a german shepherd/ pit bull mix. Since I have started becoming more interested in training and fulfilling not just the pit bull in him, I was recommended to get him tested by a trainer I work with as he has trained many dogs for schutzhund and believed he was indeed a dutch shepherd mix. The more I read about the breed, the more I realize how much my dog is the dutch shepherd rather than a pit bull.

Boris and I are currently training for his CGC at the moment and we'd like to get into therapy work. He is very sweet and silly but loves to work as well. He's very trainable, usually picking up on new training in a matter of minutes. We live with six cats, three of whom he grown up with since 8 weeks old and he herds them all the time.

I'm so excited I found this forum. I hope I can continue to further my education about this breed so that I can strengthen my bond with my dog. Here's a few pictures of him and his sister (who looks very much like a Dutch Shepherd, from the same liter as well) and random shots of him. I look forward to getting to know all of you!


Boris and his sister, Tsoupi at six months.


Brother and sister at 1 year


Typically his ears do not stand up...


But when he gets excited they stand up.


We call them his mischief ears.

Welcome to the forum!

Last pic would be a great submission for this month's contest "Me and my dog"

Welcome Cassandra and Boris!
I agree: you are all set up for the photo contest this month already!
There are pictures in which Boris looks very DS. And other pictures in which he looks very much Pit (ish) to me.
(I am stunned that DNA would come back as DS. I bet that if I submitted my DS's they would not come back as that, even though they are) Regardless of what Boris is: welcome here. We love having you.

vneerland wrote: (I am stunned that DNA would come back as DS. I bet that if I submitted my DS's they would not come back as that, even though they are) Regardless of what Boris is: welcome here. We love having you.

I was thinking the same thing. I didn't even realize the breed had been added to any of the databases. Can you tell me which company you used?

He is a handsome boy for sure! And obviously very lucky to have been rescued and ended up in your home!

Please take a moment and set up a signature for yourself (including your name) by visiting the User Control Panel. It helps folks like me remember who is who! Thanks and welcome!

from various articles and reviews i have read, tests based on the Wisdom Panel from MARS Veterinary offer the most reasonable results. the best article i have read is from Veterinary Information Network - actually addresses the science a bit and offers explanation, review, etc [ articleId=23206 ]. WOW! just noticed i'm a 'puppy' now!

veneravmehah wrote:Hello, everyone! My name is Cassandra and I have a two year old Dutch mix named Boris. I just recently found out he was part dutch after DNA testing him out of sheer curiosity. I had always thought he was a german shepherd/ pit bull mix. Since I have started becoming more interested in training and fulfilling not just the pit bull in him, I was recommended to get him tested by a trainer I work with as he has trained many dogs for schutzhund and believed he was indeed a dutch shepherd mix. The more I read about the breed, the more I realize how much my dog is the dutch shepherd rather than a pit bull.

Boris and I are currently training for his CGC at the moment and we'd like to get into therapy work. He is very sweet and silly but loves to work as well. He's very trainable, usually picking up on new training in a matter of minutes. We live with six cats, three of whom he grown up with since 8 weeks old and he herds them all the time.

I'm so excited I found this forum. I hope I can continue to further my education about this breed so that I can strengthen my bond with my dog. Here's a few pictures of him and his sister (who looks very much like a Dutch Shepherd, from the same liter as well) and random shots of him. I look forward to getting to know all of you!

Hi, I am new to this forum too...and likewise I am so glad to find it too. The shelter we got Copper from called him a shepherd mix. We had been thinking he had some plott hound with shepherd because he came from Alabama originally. Plotts are common in the south. But now that I've found this forum and all the pics here, I think Copper may have just been a runty DS! Where did you have the DNA test done and how much did it cost? I may want to know more about our dog Copper too. Thanks!
Paula

Welcome to the forum

About the test: I know the Dutch breed club has tried to make a profile for DS, they used a truck load of FCI DS DNA profiles to try and create one, conclusion was: it's impossible
So who ever offered the test, is comparing to an non excisting database Did you have to send pictures along with the DNA sample??

Anyway, he is handsome, and looks like he's one of your best friends So forget about the testing

Marjolein wrote:About the test: I know the Dutch breed club has tried to make a profile for DS, they used a truck load of FCI DS DNA profiles to try and create one, conclusion was: it's impossible
So who ever offered the test, is comparing to an non excisting database Did you have to send pictures along with the DNA sample??

I agree that a DNA test would not be reliable proof of anything.
With that being said, Marjolein, the NHC wanted to distinguish the KNPV DS from the FCI DS. That turned out to be virtually impossible. (Geez, I wonder why)
That does not, at the same time, imply that it is impossible to distinguish a...oh...let's say Labrador from a Shepherd type (genetically). I fiercely doubt though, that they even have enough DNA material to make an educated statement about any dog being DS. If I remember correctly, people were asked to send in their *instert breed* and the material would be used to compile a database. Not a very scientific approach, is it?

BTW. the above remark is certainly meant as a general remark, and in no way an attack on anyone or their dog.

vneerland wrote:With that being said, Marjolein, the NHC wanted to distinguish the KNPV DS from the FCI DS. That turned out to be virtually impossible. (Geez, I wonder why)

leih merigian wrote:

vneerland wrote:With that being said, Marjolein, the NHC wanted to distinguish the KNPV DS from the FCI DS. That turned out to be virtually impossible. (Geez, I wonder why)

Did I say something funny?

You have some great shots of your pup! Welcome!

Just a possible thought on the DNA thing, there's been looooots of talk about DNA profiling and markers and alleles, etc... On the Singing Dog forums I also participate in. A lot of it with having to do with testing for purity vs. Hybrids, as they are a rare subspecies and a lot of concern and consideration is going into conservation efforts with a limited gene pool.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way a geneticist or even a biologist! *lol* I'm just musing out loud...

It could be, that as someone mentioned before it's probably possible to narrow down a DNA sample into a generalized "Shepherd-type" category, let's say, lumping together GSD, DS, and Belgian Shepherds (in all coat variants,) in one group. Then, even if they didn't have enough solid DS samples to compare with, if they've narrowed her dog's sample down to "A Shepherd-type" and then it didn't match with any of their Belgian or German Shepherd samples, by default, categorized it as Dutch Shepherd by process of elimination? *shrugs* As I said, just pondering.

With Singers, there's been a lot of talk about the work of the late Dr. Wilton and his collegues, who confirmed that Australian Dingos and New Guinea Singing Dogs are genetically distinct from all other canis familiaris, though harder to distinguish from one another. Ongoing efforts to further refine testing and assesment to perfect being able to tell Dingo from Singer and progress in that area is a recurring hot topic on some of those forums.

Either way, again, as said before, in the long run does it truly matter? *grin* You have a beautiful happy dog, and that's what's important, right?

vneerland wrote: I agree that a DNA test would not be reliable proof of anything.
With that being said, Marjolein, the NHC wanted to distinguish the KNPV DS from the FCI DS. That turned out to be virtually impossible. (Geez, I wonder why)

Yes, BUT, in order to do so, the first thing they were doing, was trying to create a profile for the breed. I believe the main issue was, that there were no differences between the DNA profile for malinois (FCI) and DS. Therefore, there was no profile. They never even got to the point of comparing it to KNPV lineage dogs, the people who were willing to give DNA of their KNPV lineage dogs, have never send in any material because it made no sense, as there was no clear profile for DS. The DNA send in was all from several NHC organised events, where people with a FCI DS were asked to give DNA, chip was checked etc. So the idea was good, but mali and DS are too much alike (yeah, I know....)

This was a project lead by NHC, only for DS. After they had enough material, the laboratory concluded it was impossible to make a DS profile, not that KNPV were no different from FCI, they never even got to that point Which would have been rather interesting

Not much difference in those too

Marjolein wrote:Yes, BUT, in order to do so, the first thing they were doing, was trying to create a profile for the breed. I believe the main issue was, that there were no differences between the DNA profile for malinois (FCI) and DS. Therefore, there was no profile. They never even got to the point of comparing it to KNPV lineage dogs, the people who were willing to give DNA of their KNPV lineage dogs, have never send in any material because it made no sense, as there was no clear profile for DS. The DNA send in was all from several NHC organised events, where people with a FCI DS were asked to give DNA, chip was checked etc. So the idea was good, but mali and DS are too much alike (yeah, I know....)

This was a project lead by NHC, only for DS. After they had enough material, the laboratory concluded it was impossible to make a DS profile, not that KNPV were no different from FCI, they never even got to that point Which would have been rather interesting

This is not how I understood it at the time. But even if you were to be right, there is also a very logical explanation for this. The 'split' happened 100 years ago. On paper. While in reality, the split really never happened at all. Not totally anyway. Some dogs, maybe. Other dogs, not so much or not at all. You and I both know it is laughable to even believe there is a contingent of 'Pure' DS's even within the FCI population. Best chances for that would be in the long and rough coated ones, but with their extinction level population.........
For myself, it just confirms what I have been saying for the past 20 years or so. Pure bred? Is an illusion (in our breed at least)

When asked, we offered them (the NHC ) the DNA of our dogs, an opportunity they never used...
I wonder why???

D.

Selena wrote:When asked, we offered them (the NHC ) the DNA of our dogs, an opportunity they never used...
I wonder why???

D.

Really? You wonder?

So what does it mean when people are advertising that their pups are out of DNA Proven FCI Purebred Dutch Shepherds?

k9katet wrote:So what does it mean when people are advertising that their pups are out of DNA Proven FCI Purebred Dutch Shepherds?

My guess would be that the DNA proven refers to the lineage of the dog in question, not so much it's Dutch genetic pureness if there is no clear established DNA profile for that. ie. the dog's pedigree shows only Dutch for all seeable generations (that would be the pure part) and the dog is confirmed through DNA to match what is seen on paper (the DNA confirmed part), essentially a DNA proof that the parents are who the papers say they are? My guess. ..or the person is implying that a breed DNA test spit out Dutch (which I've never seen as a recognized possibility in any of the companies I know of).

yup, it only means you get a cretificate that says the parents are indeed the parents.
You must pay attention tho, a lot of dogs come with a "DNA-profile". That is just a profile, and no proof the parents are the real parents, only a certificate that states the parents are correct is proof the breeding is what it is!!
In that case the DNA profiles of both parents were matched with the DNA profile of the pup, if this proves the pup is indeed of the mentioned parents, you get a "proof of origin" certificate