Dutch Shepherd Forum

I'm thinking about learning marker training for my next puppy. It will most likely be a DS. I'm wonder if this type of training can be used successfully in bite training. Any thoughts on this matter will greatly be appreciated.

Marker training is useful for accurate communication regardless of what kind of training you are looking into. We use it for starting all new behaviors and use it almost exclusively for all of our detection dogs. In bite work, we use it to mark appropriate behaviors before any reward is presented (ie - dog gives me eye contact, so I mark the behavior and then release them to the bite). A marker doesn't have to be a clicker. On the field I tend to use "Yes."

I'm not sure where you are located, but I believe Dave Collier (spelling?) in TX uses it in bite work quite a bit and gives seminars. You can check with Darryl & Tammy Richey at TriCounty K9 (www.tricountyk9.com) about it. They have hosted seminars in the past and are both very accomplished trainers.

Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.

HARNW76 wrote:Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.

I have heard and seen nothing but greatness from Michael Ellis. You couldn't have a better opportunity!

I'm forgetful so I used to forget my clicker in the house all the time when I trained my ridgebacks so I just use a loud tongue click instead. Has the same effect and I've yet to find a way to forget my tongue anywhere haha

we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

Christie M wrote:

HARNW76 wrote:Thanks for the insight Christie.
Are you familiar with Michael Ellis and his training philosophies?
I live about 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis, Mo.

I have heard and seen nothing but greatness from Michael Ellis. You couldn't have a better opportunity!

Thanks for your insight Christie. I'll take your advice and run with it. (as best I can). : )

Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

That's encouraging to know. Thank you Steph. This is new training for me. I watched your video and learned something new already. I will watch more of them. Thank you for your help.

Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

One caviat about using a varied amount of treats as a reinforcement....

A find a lot of people swear by a variable reward schedule (what Bart is talking about in that vid, the dog knows a reward is coming but doesn't know how much). I see lots of protection sport people hammer that concept into new comers, the dog must never know when to expect the reward, it must always be variable as that creates a much stronger behaviour. Well, yes and no with a side of caution.

A variable schedule does indeed strengthen and create a stronger more reliable behaviour. The problem however lies in using a variable schedule while the dog is still in a learning phase of the behaviour. In marker training we break down behaviours into little fragments which start off rough, are polished, and eventually put together to create a final set of small short behaviours that for example make up heeling. What we teach the dog in the beginning stages, and what those behaviours look like at first, is a much rougher version with some mistakes and some room for error and lack of precision until the behaviour through time and repetition is refined and those errors are eliminated. The problem with using variable reinforcement while at that learning stage is that along with the good snippets of behaviour you in fact strengthen all those mistakes as well. It then takes longer to undo or eliminate them as they have inadvertently been strongly reinforced already. It takes a lot more to extinguish them and some times even still they creep up later on as a default behaviour as it was a part of the foundation work.

So if you plan to use variable reinforcement, be sure that you're using it at a time when the dog is already performing the desired behaviour nearly flawlessly.

(This snippet of invaluable information is a gem I got from Bob Bailey )

Choochi wrote:

Geremy wrote:we use the clicker at the proction work in mondioring... i use it for "guarding object" and the transport of the decoy. but i use it a little bit other like the most people.

here is a video from bart bellon... very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y

One caviat about using a varied amount of treats as a reinforcement....

A find a lot of people swear by a variable reward schedule (what Bart is talking about in that vid, the dog knows a reward is coming but doesn't know how much). I see lots of protection sport people hammer that concept into new comers, the dog must never know when to expect the reward, it must always be variable as that creates a much stronger behaviour. Well, yes and no with a side of caution.

A variable schedule does indeed strengthen and create a stronger more reliable behaviour. The problem however lies in using a variable schedule while the dog is still in a learning phase of the behaviour. In marker training we break down behaviours into little fragments which start off rough, are polished, and eventually put together to create a final set of small short behaviours that for example make up heeling. What we teach the dog in the beginning stages, and what those behaviours look like at first, is a much rougher version with some mistakes and some room for error and lack of precision until the behaviour through time and repetition is refined and those errors are eliminated. The problem with using variable reinforcement while at that learning stage is that along with the good snippets of behaviour you in fact strengthen all those mistakes as well. It then takes longer to undo or eliminate them as they have inadvertently been strongly reinforced already. It takes a lot more to extinguish them and some times even still they creep up later on as a default behaviour as it was a part of the foundation work.

So if you plan to use variable reinforcement, be sure that you're using it at a time when the dog is already performing the desired behaviour nearly flawlessly.

(This snippet of invaluable information is a gem I got from Bob Bailey )

Just to be clear. When laying the foundation work with my puppy it's good to vary the amount of the reward but not the timing. That's for later. Yes? I have another question...... When first starting out with this type of training with your puppy, do you introduce the concept to the dog that he will get a reward after each time I say "yes" buy doing that over and over again regardless of what he may be doing at the time. (Of course not being bad is some way) For instance, he could laying of the floor in the middle of the room or laying in my lap for that matter. In other words, in the very beginning do I start teaching him that "yes" will bring him a reward even when he's not doing anything at all.

HARNW76 wrote: In other words, in the very beginning do I start teaching him that "yes" will bring him a reward even when he's not doing anything at all.

I think you'll find your DS puppy to be very smart and will pair it quite quickly. I start the pairing with a watch command and don't "load" the CR/YES/clicker first. They catch on in the first session or two and begin to understand that whatever they were doing when they heard that noise is something to be repeated.

Christie,
I've heard the term "load" before when talking about marker training. Can you explain more fully what you meant by saying you "don't load the CR/YES first."

Loading or charging refers to when you initially establish the connection to the dog that a marker signal (be it a clicker, a word, a whistle, a sound you make) means a primary reinforcer ie food is coming. What that might mean in case of clicker training is that before you start using the clicker during training, you would do a couple sessions of just click-treat, click-treat, click-treat.

You could start off that way, but with an intelligent dog you will find they catch on super quick, as in within as little as 1 or 2 clicks. There is no need to do a formal charge, it is boring to the dog, and is almost a waste of time. You can pretty much just get right into it and they pick up that the signal they are hearing is of importance and what it means really quickly.

You can start with some thing as easy as perch work (getting a dog to stand on a platform). Dog looks at the platform or walks toward it, click-treat. Dog looks at it again, ct, dog moves toward it, ct, dog touches it, ct... etc No need to sit there for 5 minutes prior to starting and just do ct, ct, ct, ct...

Choochi wrote:Loading or charging refers to when you initially establish the connection to the dog that a marker signal (be it a clicker, a word, a whistle, a sound you make) means a primary reinforcer ie food is coming. What that might mean in case of clicker training is that before you start using the clicker during training, you would do a couple sessions of just click-treat, click-treat, click-treat.

You could start off that way, but with an intelligent dog you will find they catch on super quick, as in within as little as 1 or 2 clicks. There is no need to do a formal charge, it is boring to the dog, and is almost a waste of time. You can pretty much just get right into it and they pick up that the signal they are hearing is of importance and what it means really quickly.

You can start with some thing as easy as perch work (getting a dog to stand on a platform). Dog looks at the platform or walks toward it, click-treat. Dog looks at it again, ct, dog moves toward it, ct, dog touches it, ct... etc No need to sit there for 5 minutes prior to starting and just do ct, ct, ct, ct...

Choochi,
When I first heard a trainer use the term "loading" he gave no explanation of the word.
Your explanation fits perfectly within the context of how the trainer used the word.
Thank you so much.
Also, my wife and I have recently adopted a rescue dog. I don't know how this dog behaved as a puppy but right now she is very very timid. (abuse can do that, a sad story) Anyway I'm thinking marker training might be a way to reach her. It will also give me a chance to put into practice what I learn about marker training before I get my DS. Sooooo when is our next lesson? And do I need to have Bonny with me along with a bag full of treats or am I fine just by myself?