Dutch Shepherd Forum

My trainer posted a link to this article -> http://4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

It's a follow-up to a criticism of the Dog Whisperer show and the behavior modifications portrayed on that show. I find it quite interesting.

After reading it, tell us if you think your dog or DS's in-general would be a "red-zone" dog.

I think Radar's ready to strap-on a helmet and toss around the pigskin.

Thanks for the link. Interesting, indeed! There's a lot to like there.

Enzo, my rescue DS, is now 10 months old. I've found him sensitive, confident, oafish, overly enthusiastic at times, sometimes cuddly, sometimes aloof, often a little too forthcoming (I hate the term "rude" applied to dogs, as it reflects a lack of understanding of dog behaviour and a need to anthropomorphise our furry companions), smart as hell, stubborn, and absolutely delightful. Red Zone? Hardly. Easily trained? Sometimes. And, when he's not, it's probably my fault. I've only had him for four months, and am still learning how to understand him, just as he is learning how to understand me. He's eager to please, and tells me very clearly when he's confused. I've trained lots of dogs. He's both the one of the hardest and the one of the easiest in many ways. Hard because he's got his own ideas, and is a bit stubborn. Easiest, because he learns quickly and is sometimes eager to do so. He plays a little too rough, sometimes, with my Aussie/Border puppy, but he's learning to be more gentle.

He's never had anything but a soft collar round his neck, and most of his training is off-leash. He can be 100 yards away in the field, and when called will come running like the wind. Square sit in front of me? Not a chance. He's still learning how to put on the brakes. It will come as his enthusiasm is tempered with more calmness.

He needs gentle guidance, like most dogs, not ass kicking. Even too stern a voice when I say, "NO!" makes him feel bad, put his ears down, look at me with those eyes that say, "What did I do wrong?" Treats make him happy. Toys make him happy. Enthusiastic pets on the chest and behind his ears make him ecstatic. He'll approach any stranger happily, confidently, has very little fear, partly because of his temperament, partly because of the the way I've treated him, the respect he's given. He's sometimes serious, sometimes playful, always easy to be around, and I never once have felt the need to worry about how he'll react to new things. He figures stuff out pretty quickly. I've never once even considered chain collars, pinch collars, shock collars.

Dog aggressive? Not in the least, though his enthusiasm has made a couple of fearful people call him that. He was attacked by a pit at the dog park, chased down and pinned and *I* had to intervene because the dog's idiot owner just sat and watched, blaming Enzo for being "rude." Stupid human tricks never cease to amaze me. Fortunately, no harm, other than to Enzo's confidence for a couple days.

The pit owner bragged to her friend that she'd been using a shock-collar to "correct" her dog's aggressiveness, that I should know better than to let my dog approach strange dogs. Really? Dog-reactive dogs need to be managed. Period. Leashed, not shocked. Trained, not shocked. Socialized, not shocked. Shock collars do NOT cure aggression, and will only serve to make things worse over time. Most dogs quickly figure out that when the collar is not on them, their handler is no longer in control.

We invite our dogs to live in our world. It's our responsibility to learn to teach them how to live in it, how to live with us, not to adapt our ways to be like theirs. The "Dog Whisperer" is just another reality-based television show. It's entertainment for some (not for me), just like Dr.Phil is entertainment for some (ditto), but the show is no more a reliable surrogate for learning good dog training techniques than Dr. Phil's ludicrous exhibition is a replacement for skilled psychotherapy...

GLPease wrote:I've found him sensitive, confident, oafish, overly enthusiastic at times, sometimes cuddly, sometimes aloof, often a little too forthcoming (I hate the term "rude" applied to dogs, as it reflects a lack of understanding of dog behaviour and a need to anthropomorphize our furry companions), smart as hell, stubborn, and absolutely delightful.

I think you may have just described most of the DS's (including mine) I've read about here on the forum.

I found the site was chock full of interesting information, and then I came across this post for anyone interested in a Belgian Malinois --> http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress.com/ ... ont-touch/.

The DS shares an ancestry with the Mals, and though I do believe that not everyone has the patience and perseverance to own these breeds, I don't think stating that these dogs are not pets is 100% accurate.

BTW: I am about 7 months into sharing my life with Radar -and he sometimes makes me want to scream, but I am so happy he's come into my life.

centrop67 wrote:

GLPease wrote:I've found him sensitive, confident, oafish, overly enthusiastic at times, sometimes cuddly, sometimes aloof, often a little too forthcoming (I hate the term "rude" applied to dogs, as it reflects a lack of understanding of dog behaviour and a need to anthropomorphize our furry companions), smart as hell, stubborn, and absolutely delightful.

I think you may have just described most of the DS's (including mine) I've read about here on the forum.





BTW: I am about 7 months into sharing my life with Radar -and he sometimes makes me want to scream, but I am so happy he's come into my life.

Yes, this does describe most of them ! Defiantly Sadie.

Dutchringgirl wrote:Defiantly Sadie.

Autocorrect, Freudian slip, or on purpose? - Defiant vs Definite?

centrop67 wrote:

Dutchringgirl wrote:Defiantly Sadie.

Autocorrect, Freudian slip, or on purpose? - Defiant vs Definite?

OMG that is such a great catch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is Defiant and Definatley fits the description LOL.

GL, your Enzo sounds like a very lucky dog [ and a very great dog! ]. I was touched by your descriptions of your experience with him. respect is really such an important part of living with and training a DS.

Interesting article. The "red-zone" is what a lot of compulsion trainers live by. I've heard trainers say that a pit bull needs to be walked on a prong. On the other end, some "positive" petsomething trainers suggesting small dogs not be taught too many things because they can't learn them all, but it's simply because they haven't worked to find the right motivation. Since I groom a lot of small dogs, I hear some strange things that trainers tell owners.

I went to a class taught by a friend of mine and she had a yorkie learning obedience with a spoon and a can of wet dog food because that was the only way he'd get excited to work. It was probably the cutest thing ever because the handler was a 12 year old girl and they had a great bond. It took them a few classes to figure out what worked, but he was turning into a smart, confident, little dog.

To categorize a dog needing a certain method based on their breed is really a big problem. There's no one sized fits all method. Even within "positive" marker training, you can reward with a tug or a ball or a treat or a butt scratch or any other thing a dog wants to work for and use different things to mark the correct behaviors.

It can even change day to day or with the thing being taught. Odin responds best to a clicker and treats for new obedience stuff, a ball for heeling, and a tug and the word "yes" for agility. With nosework, it seems to be self rewarding to just figure out where the scent is. He's a curious guy. A prong has been the best method to control his re-activity on walks, but when he's reactive in a cage at work, it's back to a clicker and treats. True behavior modification is done by understanding the individual dog.

There are plenty of dogs of typically thought of "red-zone" breeds that are more than willing to work for praise or just continuous companionship. My aunt's rotties were the sweetest things and always walked on a flat collar or off leash. They didn't need special training skills to teach them stuff, she just taught them things as needed.

Cesar has done some things that other trainers wouldn't touch, and for that you have to give him credit. Too often the choice is to euthanize or to give the dog away to someone living on that magical farm where all aggressive dogs will live happily ever after. I don't like the editing and how harsh he is at times, but the show is getting more people to seek professional help. I had a lady come in the store a few weeks ago and ask where she could find someone that taught the Cesar methods. It didn't take long for her to learn there were other options and to get information about training that was appropriate for her dog, but before that show, she didn't even know dogs could learn to not bark or jump on people with ANY method. She just thought trainers taught dogs to sit and do dolphin tricks.

I wish people spent less time arguing about the best method and more time working together to educate the public that dogs need training and how to evaluate a good trainer for their situation. On the a few other forums I'm on, when people come on looking for a trainer, others spend more time cutting down other trainers and different methods and the original poster doesn't get any help, or worse, they run away from trainers all together and the dog gets progressively worse.

LyonsFamily wrote:True behavior modification is done by understanding the individual dog.

Yes!!! You have to fit the training to the dog... (and I agree with everything else you said, as per usual )

gotta get around to reading that article...

leih merigian wrote:

LyonsFamily wrote:True behavior modification is done by understanding the individual dog.

Yes!!! You have to fit the training to the dog... (and I agree with everything else you said, as per usual )

gotta get around to reading that article...

Agree as well. You can even plug that statement in to humans. Ive dealt with this in horses as well. It all comes down to ego. Some people are more concerned with being right than the well being of others and looking at things from different perspectives.

Dutchringgirl wrote:It all comes down to ego. Some people are more concerned with being right than the well being of others and looking at things from different perspectives.

No lie...plus just not having any imagination or having more than one trick in your bag of trick

Dutchringgirl wrote: Agree as well. You can even plug that statement in to humans. Ive dealt with this in horses as well. It all comes down to ego. Some people are more concerned with being right than the well being of others and looking at things from different perspectives.

No truer words could be spoken. Not just about dogs and training, either, but pretty much across the board in today's ego- and self-interest driven world. Some call it progress... Funny, that.

Enzo and Tango, my 5-month old Aussie/Border mix, are in the living room, wrestling with a toy, growling, chomping at each other, and having a grand old time. Somehow, our dogs manage to figure out how to get along, and we humanoids think we're the smart ones.

These two dogs are as different as they can be. Tango, in typical Aussie style, is eager to learn, eager to please, effortless to train. Five minutes with a few treats, and he learned sit and down. Reinforcement the next day, and the day after, and it stuck like glue. Enzo, not so much. He still looks at me like he doesn't know what I'm talking about when he decides he doesn't want to do it. Tango will perform for anyone in the family. Enzo, only for me, when he wants to.

Two very different pups. Two very different needs for training techniques. One size not only doesn't fit all, it probably doesn't fit any. Just got Terry Ryan's "Outwitting Dogs." I suspect I'll pick up a bunch of new things. I just need to be sure to keep the book away from Enzo, because if he reads it before I do, I'm doomed...

Great conversations!!

GLPease - can you please visit the user control panel and create a signature that includes your name? It just helps us remember who is who as we grow!

GLPease wrote: Somehow, our dogs manage to figure out how to get along, and we humanoids think we're the smart ones.

True True True !!!

I had a pit/ rott mix, she was super sweet, my parents BH at the time was a bit aggressive, the BH would get in my dogs face and bark away, like she was telling her, "I am the boss and you will submit". Well, my dog would stand there and not do a thing, not be aggressive back but not back down, they were nose to nose once and my dog just stood there. I didnt do a thing, I stayed back and let them deal. No fight, nothing, the BH finally got the hint and walked away saying " Ill be back!"
They can figure it out better than we can.

If you watch, really watch animals, they can figure out situations so well. I cant tell you the amount of times I have seen my horses and dogs work it out.