Dutch Shepherd Forum

Oh, brother...I don't know where to start....

We adopted our 1 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd six months ago (rescue dog from shelter) and have had some behavior concerns. You can read a full description in my earlier post titled "New Member with Behavior Problems". Basically, our dog is showing fear aggression toward other dogs and also gets excited and nips/bites at our family members when there is a lot of activity or chaos in the house---like when kids are running around, people chasing each other, lifting/tickling at each other, etc. Otherwise completely trustworthy with the kids. They can lay on him, take toys or food out of his mouth, etc and there has never ever been any sign of aggression in calm situations. But the excited biting we need to stop. He also grabbed the back of a neighbor girl's coat when she was running in our yard with my daughter. The worst bite was on my daughter's buttocks which broke skin through her pants and left some bruising.

So after posting here and reading everyone's suggestions, we consulted an in-home dog trainer. She requested that when she arrived, we have both our dogs on a leash and hold them ten feet back from the door. She said not to talk to them at all (ie. no telling them it's ok, sit, settle, etc.). She wanted to see their body language & she said and that would tell her a lot. She said we should not talk much and she probably wouldn't say much of anything either.

Ok, seemed weird, but I complied--she's the expert after all. Of course, Simba did not know what was going on. She was a stranger. He barked and looked her in the eye. She came in and out of the door several times, each time he barked she squirted him with water. Eventually he tried to hide behind my legs and she said to shorten the leash so he could not retreat. The in and out of the door and the squirting continued eight to ten times until he finally layed down and turned his head away.

Then she told us she would not charge us for today...she was basically done. She said she thinks he is in the wrong home. And if there was any hope at all she would work with him. She said he will bite again. She was very condescending....acted like we knew nothing about dogs or the breed. Even though I had told her on the phone he was a Dutch Shepherd she said, "I think there is something else mixed in with the German Shepherd...maybe Malinois?" I told her again he was Dutch Shepherd. She said they use those dogs for police work and he is not a good family dog. Again reiterated how he looked her straight in the eyes and barked when she was intruding into our home. She suggested he go to a home with a college student or an elderly couple. ????? What ????? She was here a total of ten minutes and took one step inside the front door.

Needless to say, I am very disappointed with this encounter. This is a young dog who absolutely adores our kids. I am not trying to minimize the biting/nipping. Obviously, it needs to stop and that is why I consulted a 1:1 trainer. But I feel he just needs to learn to turn "off" the excitement and react in a way without using his mouth. He is a loving dog---he would not intentionally hurt the kids. I am sure of that.

Thoughts or opinions? I would especially welcome the input of those of you with more experience with problem behavior and training. Sorry this is so long.

Sorry to hear about your frustrating situation....with your dog, and the trainer that came. Have you looked to see if there are dog behavourists in your area? Someone who specializes in dog behaviour rather then training? Not that I am an expert on this, but there is a big difference in someone dealing with dog training (teaching you to teach them to sit, stay, come, heel etc) and someone who really understands dog behaviour and can assess it properly and works effectively on the problems.

Off the top of my head, I know Laura went through similar situation with trainers, Stella is her dog, and she did find the appropriate person to work with her family and dog. Your situation sounds like it should be able to be resolved with management. Trick is finding the right person. Keep looking. Don't give up. All the best!

Definitely she was the wrong person. She was recommended by a friend who said her vet recommends her. She calls herself the "dog whisperer" on her website. ha! Says she works with families 1:1 in home on behavior issues as well as instructing classes. Clearly, she wasn't interested in anything that would require a little extra thoughtful effort on her part.

This does sound like a disaster situation. I think I understand where she was sort of going with the elderly person or college student comment in that simba may be better in a home without kids, but you're obviously willing to put the time and effort into fixing this.

Where are you located? I may be able to recommend a trainer that's more familiar with DS and fear/nipping issues.

This sounds like an awful experience Please don't let this discourage you...there are plenty of good behaviorists around. I am in the Carolinas and know of 3 awesome behaviorists. I would be happy to give you their contact information. 2 of them work together in Concord, NC and do board-and-trains. I have seen them work miracles with dogs. Kudos to you for being willing to put the time and effort into Simba.

SIMBA, get in line - she's mine. i would have bitten that woman myself!

as Stephanie asked, where are you located?
and dog questions [ but IF YOU HAVE STATED ALL THIS PREVIOUSLY, just tell me what posting to look for]: when there is a nip, how have you been handling it? what behavior of this sort, if any, do you tolerate - like is there a scale of excitement involved? when there is general excitement, how have you guided him? do you let him jump on non-family members to say hello?
if we know more, maybe we can offer more pointers - something you are not doing to point him in right direction - until you find professional help that is not idiotic. i am wrong in saying that one of the significantly great things we love about DSs is that they stare you in the eye to say hello, to decipher what you want, etc., etc.
i went back and read your original posts and all the responses, but i think hearing detail of how you have been handling specific behaviors in specific situations would be helpful. did you pursue with consistency any of the suggestions and make any progress as a result? also, is Simba now about 18 months old?

And I'm with everyone else wondering where you live.
Holy cow what a cluster - and what a completely ignorant approach. Its infuriating.

Christie M wrote:what a completely ignorant approach. Its infuriating.

Ditto that.

Sorry I haven't been on the forum for a while to respond. Thanks for the encouragement. I think he is really a good natured dog that just needs the ability to keep himself calmed down and learn to be less mouthy. I couldn't believe it when she said "If there was any hope at all...but I don't think there is...." JAW DROPPING!!

As for how we respond when he gets bitey...I try to catch him right away and say "no bite". He chomps at air too when he is excited--like when I put him outside and he is waiting for the other dog he will bite at the air a few times. Weird, I know. So I tell him "no bite" then too. I try to make him sit/stay when I open the door to get some self discipline but then he just chomps air when he gets outside on the porch. Sometimes when he is excited and he reaches up to my face to kiss me he has his mouth open and it is kinda like a open mouth kiss (!!) but not really a nip. I also sometimes put my hand over his mouth when I say the "no bite".

No we don't allow him to jump up on people generally because that's usually when he is excited and bitey. And he is big. We either turn away or I have even lifted up my knee into his chest when he gets really wild. The command we use is "settle". He's starting to get it.

The nips on the kids have happened when we are usually not present so they handle it differently--which I think is some of the problem. I think they see the kids as another dog/litter mate to tackle and play rough with. They usually yell and scream at him and the first I hear of it is when they appear and tell me what happened. Yes, we need some work here, I know. I'm not sure they have recognized what gets him revved up. Nevertheless, I hope he can get to the point where the kids can be rowdy with each other an he won't feel he has the right to tackle them.

By the way, we are in Iowa. I have a call in to a dog behaviorist that works with the local animal shelter and I have heard good things about. We shall see... Yes, he is about 18 months old so still kinda puppyish, loves to have toys in his mouth.

As I read what I just wrote, I want to clarify a few things. He sounds like some vicious wild dog which is not the case at all. He is very layed back and calm in the house unless his people get excited. Also he never shows any deliberate aggression toward the kids. They can lay on him, take his food dish away, take food out of his mouth, take away his toys, get in his crate with him while he eats, etc. He adores the kids. Just gets wild unintentionally and it comes on in an instant. I worry that if he gets rowdy with someone outside our family and unintentionally hurts them, he will be deemed a "dangerous" dog because of his breed and there could be trouble for our boy (and us).

Something you can do in the meantime is continue to work on obedience. I have an excited mouthy 10 month pup, (not DS) but when he gets excited, he gets mouthy and usually directs it at Sugar. I try just to have him in a calm atmosphere, but having kids, I know that is impossible to expect calmness in the household at all times, and the dogs need to learn to be calm when the kids are not. (Its harder to train the kids then the dogs I swear!!)

I've been working on leave it with him and seeing real progress. As he is young, eventually he will get that he should not do it in the first place, but that takes more maturity in my experience. First they learn to stop when you tell them to, eventually they learn just not to do it in the first place. So its constant supervision so the correction can be made or removing him to not have him around the excitement at all. He just doesn't sound ready to be unsupervised with the kids yet.

Hopefully this new person will work out and give you some great strategies, keeping my fingers crossed : )

It's been a while since I've posted here, but we just met with a different behaviorist this weekend. She is truly a BEHAVIORIST--works with rescue dogs at the shelter for the past 33 years as well as doing home visits and has written a book.

So our instincts on Simba were correct . She did not agree with first....uh, what shall I call her?....."trainer" (I use the word loosely). She said Simba is exceptional--he does not have the typical high-drive personality most Dutch Shepherds do and she felt that was probably why he was neutered and apparently dumped. She could see how affectionate he was with all the family members and to herself as well. She mentioned his personality is more like a collie! I don't know about that, but she thought we were doing everything right and he is making fine progress.

She mentioned she did not think he had ever had a real bonded home like he has with us because otherwise he wouldn't have had some of the issues he had--terrible fear in the car, clacking his jaws when excited which she said is common in puppies but they are usually broken of it long before now, panic in the crate, fear of other dogs, and also things that lead us to believe he was locked up in a kennel a lot--like the divots on his lower teeth from apparently chewing a fence or crate, and also his preference to potty on cement or gravel when we first got him.

So we need to keep on the same path. He is doing better with the rowdy biting stuff. But we just need to always be aware and probably crate him or keep him inside when kids are running around being wild just to be on the safe side. We got some good advice.

Some things she suggested were: keeping him focused on us when around other dogs to let him know we would make all the decisions and he doesn't need to; getting him used to a basket-type muzzle for the vet visits; continue to desensitize him by taking him to the vet office just to have yummies, etc; play a game of "freeze" when he starts to escalate--she said that is dog language for "something has gone wrong" and when we stop so will he probably; get a Comfort Zone DAP collar for the vet visits (anyone used those???). I am going to sign him up for the next level of obedience so he can have some more experience around other dogs and continue to improve his obedience.

I found it interesting that she said these dogs do not like to make decisions. I thought a Dutch Shepherd was an independent thinker, but she said they want to be told exactly what to do. That alleviates the stress. So when he is in a stressful situation we can give him commands to take his mind off the other dogs, the vet, etc...