6 months and hyperaroused by dogs - Help!

[Karin]

Hi Everyone.

So Tygo is 6 months now and closing in on 60 lbs. He is very fit and strong. We have been doing clicker training and only using a flat collar. He is doing well and knows lots of commands. We also train at SAR and he is doing well learning to air scent and find/refind techniques. He gets tons of exercise and now that he appears to be done teething, he is starting to get interested in toys. He crates beautifully, travels well, and is fine in the house.

He is my big problem. He gets very hyperaroused by dogs, all dogs, any dogs. I am not certain that the term to use here is reactive. I think it is. He is not mean/aggressive, he just wants to get in with the dogs and play, but his play is very very hard, jumping, slamming all over the other dog. Eventually, given the slightest opportunity he humps and if the dog runs or snarls that usually means "Game on" to Tygo. There are a few dogs he knows and respects and seems to play fine with but anyone new is fair game to him. I do a lot of hiking and if I can't see the dog first, it is a mess. It is getting worse. And I am getting in trouble with dog owners as you can imagine.

I wish I could feel assured that he would outgrow this, not sure anyone can give me those assurances.

Unfortunately, I don't have great trainers in this area. I'm still trying to find out if Reno NV or Foothills around Sacramento has anyone that I could work with. BUT in the mean time can you help with a training plan?

1. More consistency across the board. He is a strong willed confident dog and he is starting to test more.
2. No more off leash hikes unless I'm sure there are no other dogs.
3. Increase play now that he is tugging. He has no retrieve and I'm working on that. Make myself more fun than dogs…. I am doubtful but I will keep trying.
4. I put a prong on him today and just allowed him to self correct in a non-distracting environment. I know I need help if I am to use this with distractions like dogs.
5. Continue obedience classes in January.
6. Try to find a trainer that knows protection breeds and can help me with prongs and ecollars.
7. Read???? Recommendations.
8. More wine.

Any other thoughts?

[johninny]

WINE and an e-collar.

i know you are seeking more professional advice than mine. following your comments here, i think you have a much more professional and knowledgeable grasp of matters than i do. but i am here and i have observed a lot of what great people have said about this sort of thing. [ more dog reactive/aggressive than precisely what you describe, but the dog-owner reactions are key in my experience!]
for one thing, it does not get better on its on - it gets worse.
2nd, even the best people do not have sure-fire solutions and the training solutions are slow and tedious with no assured FULL pay-off.
my Tracer is about 2 weeks older than Tygo and from the photos you post, i cannot tell the difference between them. now by your words, they sound too similar.

when he was about 4 months old, i started to realize i might have a real problem on my hands if what i had considered puppy behavior blossomed into something more menacing as he became more of a dog [physically, emotionally, and especially in the eyes of others - as his behavior would no longer be dismissed as the innocent antics of a puppy! ]. one day i simply woke up in a total panic about it and went into full-scale remedial mode with my 1st use of an e-collar as my highly probable last resort. [ btw, my physical situation was similar - out in nature - or alternatively, menacing passersby and their dogs at our fence. ]

i took him to manhattan for a day [ his 1st city experience ] and subjected him to years' worth of country dog meetings condensed into hours - all the while showering treats on him for the slightest good behavior. followed up by taking him everywhere all the time. it was a marathon. introduced an e-collar a few weeks ago; by that time, he knew ''leave it'' was firmly attached to certain behaviors and that he was rewarded for any restraint shown w/r/t these behaviors. i think judicious use of an e-collar has cemented this progress, but to be honest and very clear about it, we have not experienced the circumstances yet which would allow me to be confident that big progress on lots of small fronts means that he will pass the ultimate test [ like free-range meeting of dogs on a trail]. i do know next time he faces such a test, he will be wearing an e-collar to help him if he needs it. in just a few uses, the e-collar has made him enormously responsive to ''leave it'' and ''here'' under very diverse circumstances - so i am very hopeful. [ in a general way, it is only these commands the e-collar is called upon to reinforce for Tracer.]

in summary, i had been following your programs 1,2,3,[and 8], but as of yesterday abandoned #2 in favor of the e-collar and am awaiting confirmation [ or measurement ] of success in this matter.

[Dutchringgirl]

Wow, you have a big boy there !!!

I am with Johnny on the wine !! LOL

I would defiantly amp up my tools. With such a big boy and still a pup, you will really need power steering. I would go for the prong collar. I use them as power steering when I have both my girls with me on walks just in case. Mostly for Sadie though, but one cannot be sure what is around the next corner. If the other dog is a total wack job ( more than ours) then I want to be able I can get mine under control faster than they can ( and I usually do)

My advice would be to make a long line leash for hikes, and if you arent sure of what is around the corner, reel him in. If you think its safe, he can go longer and sniff and play.

I would go for a prong collar, also make sure you have a double leash to attach to a flat collar so when ( yes when) the prong comes undone ( and it will) you have back up.

If he is testing more, you stay in line with that and make sure the consequences let him know his boundaries.

I like that you are letting him self correct. Thats good, Sadie knows what the prong means so It really is just a reminder for her not to rip my elbow out.

Another thing I like to do is to step on the leash while they are in a down. You could go into town or to a park and go a bit away from everyone. Put him in a down, step on the leash and let him hang out and learn to be patient. At 6 months, it will be a millisecond. Teach him to "look". Put him in a down / look, and he is to look at you for as long as ...........well............work up to a long time LOL

Defiantly keep up with the obedience work. Work on getting a solid recall, he is to recall from a dead run after a squirrel. The most fun was to recall as they go after a decoy !

See how it goes with a prong for now. When you find a good trainer, then you can teach him the ecollar, It can never hurt, and can be a great reminder for him off leash.

Wow, I think this is the most I have ever written LOL

[Sugars Mom]

A couple of things to add...if you can, until you get this under control, avoid going places where you know he will be unsuccessful with being able to manage himself, as the more he practices doing these things, the more it becomes bad habits. I kinda thought if I continued taking Sugar to the same places that training and correcting her would solve things but it didn't.

So I worked with Sugar on focusing on me (getting treats when she did) when around other dogs as a training exercise, starting at a distance where she was able to do it without going over her threshold. Obviously, you can't control 100% how close you get to other dogs when out and about, but you can recognize certain places that are triggers (like narrow hiking trails? or free for all dog play areas?) and work on the foundation for avoiding confrontations and gradually reintroduce those places as he can handle them.

For example, I realized the narrower the tail or even just being on a sidewalk when passing another dog with Sugar, the more reactive she could get. Giving her space between her and the other dog, and crossing the street or pulling over so the dogs did not have to pass by close was a huge help in lessening her reaction. And I continued to work on focusing on me.

With time and alot of work, it gets better!

[LyonsFamily]

Elli had the same problems. I call this reactivity as well, even though it's not an aggressive reactivity. It all comes down to obedience. I would proof off of other dogs just as you would any distraction. There should be no interacting with other dogs while you're out an about just the same as he can't interact with squirrels, cats, rabbits, and other fun things or eat anything random left on the sidewalk.

Counter conditioning doesn't work well if it's all a barrier frustration related to play as he learns that other dogs can mean even greater things and you can increase arousal. You need to set a specific criteria for what you want during those times and only reward for that.

You need to teach a loose leash and heel with distractions and then work your way up to off leash heel and off leash close walking with a reliable recall if you want to hike off leash. Even if you have these skills on a basic level, they need to be worked on and proofed through different levels of distractions. Start indoors. Work on walking on leash with nothing around. As you progress, you can add things on the ground like favorite toys, food on the ground, the bathroom trash (a personal favorite here). Teach Tygo to walk past these things while focusing on you and the correct position. For loose leash walk, I teach that the leash has to make a J from the collar up to my hand. For heeling, it's a focused heel looking at me almost all of the time. Both should be accomplished without Tygo interacting with the distractions.

As the indoor work gets better, you can add other known dogs nearby and making your way out to the backyard and eventually more distracting environments, but don't rush progress. The dog needs to be set up for success and know exactly what you're looking for. If you're doing this with just positive reinforcement, you need to work on multiple repetitions and weaning off treats in every environment. For myself, this is the point I would add fair and properly timed corrections when the dog chooses to not follow the well taught skills.

Teaching the recall is the same thing. Start indoors with little distractions and work your way up to the big stuff off leash. I think the off leash walks are too much right now since you don't have the obedience to keep him controlled 100% of the time.

[Karin]

Thank you all. I woke up this morning a bit more calm and collected. Went to SAR training and one of the things they said was to tone down my way with him. They said he has plenty of drive and doesn't need a bunch of whooping and yipping. They had a similar message to focus on obedience and calming around distraction.

I will take all your comments to heart and really focus on engagement and obedience and limit my time when I will run into loose dogs, which is a bit of a culture around here…."My retriever/lab is friendly!!!!" As it is barreling toward us.

John, if you can handle 3 DS you are about as professional as it gets. Hats off to you! I will be very interested in your updates.

While I am going to continue introducing the prong to Tygo in safe environments, I actually am very paranoid about them as I know I made a GSD more aggressive with a prong because I was stupid. So I won't go forward until I learn more about using them around other dogs.

Stephanie, you wrote, "Counter conditioning doesn't work well if it's all a barrier frustration related to play as he learns that other dogs can mean even greater things and you can increase arousal. You need to set a specific criteria for what you want during those times and only reward for that. "

Could you explain that a bit. Like what do you mean by barrier frustration?

Thank you again. I will up my obedience work and proof and proof.

Anyone have specific ideas for calming? I know I can down him (when it is safe) and click and treat, but in this case, the calming doesn't seem to generalize. I did this in doggy class and he can do it but it isn't translating to other areas well… again, I could go a bit slower.

Anyway, time for a beer!!!

[Sugars Mom]

Anyone have specific ideas for calming? I know I can down him (when it is safe) and click and treat, but in this case, the calming doesn't seem to generalize. I did this in doggy class and he can do it but it isn't translating to other areas well… again, I could go a bit slower.

Yes, its going to take time...I found that if my dog is over their threshold of what they can handle, I need to move away from the trigger to get them able to focus and be calm again. So some things he will be able to handle now and redirect into a down, etc, and some others, not yet. It will take time, work and maturity too. He is only 6 months, right?

Any one else have some other specific suggestions for calming?

[johninny]

when i entered my panic about Tracer's behavior [ which i think was less crazy but with more intended menace than Tygo's ] and did my marathon exposure stuff, i followed advice that i thought i had gleaned over time mostly from this group. at first sight of a dog, i would say cheerfully. ''there's a dog -- EASY'', then ''leave it'' if necessary. if i saw extra excitement, i added ''sit''. in my/his case, there was no movement away. i wanted him to get used to dogs moving through life in all the unexpected ways they do. before doing this, i made sure he was well-practiced in leave it and sit [ with the implied stay]. maybe i am wrong, but i thought moving him artificially away from stimulus would give him a false sense of things [ like comforting when they are afraid of normal noises]. i wanted him to take everything in stride and personally tried to blaze the way for him - to give example. having said this, i was NOT oblivious to any POTENTIAL anxiety he may feel about his own safety. i would quietly and subtly move in ways that gave him a sense that i was aware of his safety while not being fearful about it being compromised [ don't know how to explain that better]. and, as i said before, showering him with treats all the while he is doing well [ a HUGE lot of treats, but not so many that he was not paying attention to the dog's presense -- i wanted the treats to be perceived as a reward for good behavior in a specific situation, NOT for the treats to be a distraction! this goes against some of what i have read, but this is my strategy given where i want him to go - to be perfectly calm meeting a dog 200 feet ahead of me off-leash] . observing him during that early part of the process, i think the treats shower was key. we see a dog and he thinks ''TREAT TIME!'' and is beginning to get a bit sweet-happy about such encounters. so in the end i guess one can say the treat is the ultimate distraction; but first there is full independent recognition of a new dog approaching, then his mind turns to treats rather than something more nefarious.

think the advice re less whoop and yip is good - though piling it on [ the whooping and the yipping ] whenever he does not do an unwanted behavior works very well. i struggle, but i think i manage to whoop and yip at all the appropriate times - which is very strange to the casual observer. but these dogs are so smart: when they make that extra conscious effort to deflect a strong impulse into non-action [especially when you are not ordering them to do so !], they absolutely bath in satisfaction when you give personal emotional recognition to their feats of self-control/when you recognize that they have summoned their loyalty and respect for you to squelch a part of themselves. it is much harder/unnatural for them to do this than to do any of the positive/fun stuff that is asked of them. they love games, work, etcetera. So i go nuts at the weirdest times, but the dogs know exactly why and they act like they deserved it, earned it, and expected such celebratory thanks. rewarding the ''subtle'' stuff pays off big time. the other stuff they view as accomplishments which at some point become their own rewards.

good luck. i know how important good trail behavior is for the happiness of both of you. [ i thought the last paragraph - re quality of life - in Stephanie's last post about ''e-collars:yes or no'' was spectacularly eloquent and right-on.]

[LyonsFamily]

Stephanie, you wrote, "Counter conditioning doesn't work well if it's all a barrier frustration related to play as he learns that other dogs can mean even greater things and you can increase arousal. You need to set a specific criteria for what you want during those times and only reward for that. "

Could you explain that a bit. Like what do you mean by barrier frustration?

From what you describe, he's frustrated and reacting out because he wants to get to other dogs to play. When you put a dog on a leash, the leash becomes restrictive against what ever outside thing he wants and builds up arousal to the point that he can display some nasty looking behavior. What you're basically doing is building drive for play accidentally. A dog that isn't aggressive at all can look aggressive and even turn aggressive by focusing too much on getting to the other dog that when they finally get there, the behavior is extreme, like what you're seeing with the jumping, and humping of other dogs.

Have you watch dock diving at all? If not, check out a few clips on youtube. Usually a helper holds the dog back on the dock while the thrower gets the dog aroused with a favorite toy and the toy is launched and the dog is finally let go. The handlers are building drive here by creating a barrier (holding the dog back) and making it frustrating to the dog because they can't get the toy. When the dog is finally released, the jump is longer and higher than it would be in a calm state. That is exactly what happens with a dog that really wants to get to play with other dogs, but is restricted some how.

It doesn't necessarily have to be with a leash. The dog can feel restricted by a fence, gate, even verbal commands if they are over used and not completely clear. This is one of the reasons why prong collars can cause aggression when used improperly. A correction collar can be felt as an additional barrier because it's increasingly annoying and prevents the dog from getting at what it wants even more.

Typically in a reactive case, a trainer would use Counter Conditioning and Desensitization. This involves rewarding the dog for being around whatever trigger is causing the outbursts (in your case, other dogs) so that the dog associates good things when the trigger is present. In your case, Tygo already knows good things happen with the trigger present, very good things, he gets to have fun playing. CC/DS works for dogs reactive with fear issues because they're afraid of what happens around other dogs and work to over come their fears. I'd have to see him to know 100% that it wasn't fear based, but from what you're describing, it doesn't seem like it at all.

Teaching impulse control will greatly help you be able to control his outbursts. Susan Garrett's crate games will give a good foundation, but it's a very basic DVD. Denise Fenzi has an online training academy with different levels of participation. Her current class has a basis of crate games, but expands outside of the crate and would probably be a good option for you to take. She has malinois and tervurens and trains without corrections. She's had some very successful schutzhund and ringsport dogs in addition to other sports without using prongs, ecollars, or chokes, so if anyone can help you without a correction collar, it would be her. The classes started yesterday, but you can still sign up today. I'm currently taking a class with her for rehabbing fear issues since Odin is getting a bit more nervous around things that might hurt him when his back pain increases.

http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/in ... se-details

In addition to her online classes, you might want to try sending her an email to see if she has any good trainer recommendations. She probably won't recommend anyone that uses prongs or ecollars, but there are some good positive trainers like her that can really help you out. She's in Woodside California and should know some clubs and trainers out your way.

I hope this all makes sense. I've been having a difficult time trying to type out exactly what I mean and Elli keeps unplugging the internet.

[Karin]

John, thanks for your thoughts. Like I said, can't wait to hear how you progress!
Stephanie thank you so so much for the long explanation. I get it. I will look into those online classes today.

Thanks and I'll report back.

Karin

[Dutchringgirl]

If you want your dog to be calm, then you be calm, its up to you to teach him how to be calm. you are the teacher and he is the student. You be calm, let him sit and fidget and you still be calm, when he is calm, click -treat. When Sadie spins and runs back and forth, I stand still, I become the thing I want her to see, I become calm, I dont move, I dont do the next thing until she is calm, ( a few help alot LOL) I stand, wait for her to come to me and sit quiet, if the but lifts, I stop, I dont proceed until the but stays on the ground. ( more ) I move, she stays, if she moves, I go back and stand. I usually dont say a word, just eye contact and use my body language to show her what I want. It takes time and consistency,but they will get it.

[steph90]

I had the same problem and a head halter worked really well for me as far as hyperactivity on the leash goes. I wanted to steer away from a prong, and the head halter was my last hope, because we weren't making progress with any recommended training techniques. My Kodi is crazy as hell, but at the same time he can be surprisingly sensitive, and seems to take things I wouldn't think twice about very personally, for lack of a better term. At first the collar made him a bit more spastic, but after a week of use there was no more lunging or pulling. My only problem is he redirected his frustration from lunging and pulling to crazy wild animal sounds. It has really helped in getting him to control himself. After having him use the head halter for a few months I can walk him with his regular collar and rarely have problems with him on the leash. If I know Im going to be somewhere that could be over- stimulating, Ill put the halter on him. Im sure it depends on the dog but it worked well for us!

[Karin]

I have used a gentle leader once with another dog and I have to say that energy to frantically get out of it weirded me out. I dread the thought of using one with Tygo because of his spirt. Not that I will never try but I do have this dread. I have been using a prong collar very very carefully. I use it only on the seldom used bike trail and in town where there is a much lower chance of running into a loose dog. I do not want to use it yet with him and dogs. Right now I just am getting him used to it and letting him self correct and positive reinforcement anytime he keeps it loose. Which he is doing a lot. Well today, a border collie jumped out of a parked car and approached us. I stayed calm and made sure I did not cause tension on the lease. It went really well. Tygo laid ears back wagged his tail did not go mosh pit crazy but greeted and then the BCs owner yelled at him to get back in the truck. I treated like a mad woman.

So today went okay. I'm going to start another thread on gentle leaders as I have questions.

[johninny]

that sounds like a MAJOR victory!!

had my own victory on tuesday when a man and wife came to visit and let themselves through the gate before i got there: Tracer stayed calm, went to them but basically smiled. i am not absolutely sure because of my tardy arrival, but i think his actions could be described as a friendly greeting. need 2 more tests of his progress: people he has never met before and someone accompanied by a dog that he does not know. but i'll take this for now -- it would have been unimaginably good behavior just a few weeks ago.

[Karin]

Big congrats John!!!!!

That is huge... Tygo is very protective of house and homeland. I think this weekend I'll get my neighbors and their standard poodles to help.

Onward!!!!