Dutch Shepherd Forum

Had a bit of a scare this weekend. Started Jerry Lee on Frontline Plus and a couple hours after applying it, he started looking very tired. He was having a hard time keeping awake so I called the vet and ultimately washed it off of him. The vet said it could be from having the HW treatment 2 weeks ago and to try again in a month. If the same thing happens then JL just can't have Frontline Plus.

I know there are plenty of horror stories but JL was not that bad other than seeming really tired. Its two days later and he has seemed better and better and finally fully himself this am (it seemed). I couldn't stand to see him mopey and sad looking. Seems that many people go the all natural route but I live in one of the worst tick areas in the US and it scares me not to use the most effective protection, even if harsh. He's already had heart worms from lack of preventatives before I rescued him, I couldn't allow him to get a tick bite... ever.

Has anyone experienced lethargy or depression after applying Frontline Plus?

Never. And I have used it for years on multiple dogs. Was he vaccinated recently? His system could just be taxed. I try to do most everything as natural as possible and I'm not big on over-vaccinating, but 2 things I do NOT mess with are HW and fleas/ticks. That's just me.

Hendrix had a bad reaction (we think) to Triflexis and tried to lick off Frontline Plus. It made him itchy it looked like. We washed it off him too. I would wait and see how JL does with it in another month - I know Hendrix's immune system was wonky and he started reacting to safe foods for a week - so letting the immune system calm down a bit is better than stressing it. Try some all natural remedies for a month. I think there was a discussion on it - try searching fleas or fleas/ticks. I am currently using Dr. Richard's flea and tick spray I got from Chewys. Seems to work great but I can't fully attest to it since we don't have a lot of bugs yet.

Thanks guys, that's reassuring. I feel it could be very possible that the cause was his HW treatment he got 2 weeks back. After all, he just got very sleepy, it's not like he had any truly harsh reactions. I really hope he doesn't get fatigued when we give it another go on April 15th.

Does anyone know how long whatever they use for the HW treatment injections will be in JL's system?

I have used FL in the past with out any problems. But now I dont use it anymore, I use natural stuff.

Just a note to say that Triflexis has had adverse/unpleasant reactions in some DSs.

seconding above, Trifexis' side-effects as reported here and elsewhere have been devastating to many dogs, resulting in near paralysis, especially in the rear quarters. [ my guess is that in attempting to orally address ALL components of flea control - unlike any other oral heartworm med, it has gone one-step too far in putting poisons inside dogs since the frequency and severity of harm seem way beyond other heartworm meds. does this observation ring true with others w/r/t other heartworm meds?]

like Stacy, i also have used frontline plus for a long time - 13 years - and until my last 2 applications never had one problem. the new puppy got a hot spot near the point of application a few hours after his first exposure to frontline plus. vet said it was not related despite my supposition that it was. within hours of his next application, half his body was covered in hot spots bleeding into one another. it was so severe that 1/3 of his body needed to be shaved and treated very aggressively. not a pretty sight - and took a very long time to clear up.

the other dogs were fine. not sure what to do about it. scared to try a 3rd time --- would him being older possibly make it any better? if not, then i would not even attempt using it on Tracer one more time. but ticks here are a huge problem. the dogs get to run free in beach grasses and brush multiple times a day. and can explore brushy areas in yard whenever the mood strikes, so spraying with really effective organic repellent is not an option. hoping some cedar/herb concoction will work, but ticks seem to be oblivious to anything that is not obnoxious or dangerous. Lisa, do you have specific recommendations that you would trust if your girls roamed freely in the deer woods around you?

of course, going back to JerryLee, no matter what course is chosen for flea and tick control [ FL-P, a competitor, natural, etc.], he will still need a heartworm med once he gets the all-clear from his vet.
also for 13 years i used Interceptor for this purpose. but then it went off the market last year or so. besides heartworm, it also dealt with hookworm, roundworms, and whipworms. alternatives still on the market do not cover as much - sometimes ONLY heartworm - without going overboard as Trifexis seems to do. after months of worrying, researching and fussing with a lot of vets, i settled on a custom med in which i added protection against tapeworm to the above protections without the death-to-all-stages-of-fleas that Trifexis has. so my vet worked with a pharmacy in AZ - Roadrunner - to get the desired mix of ingredients.

thinking back to a thread [ i think over 1 year ago ] about ticks, Lyme disease, etc. in which i asked about lyme vaccine: i had a natural bias against it that others here reinforced. but one year later - with ticks the worst i have ever seen and lyme getting more and more dangerous [ and a bite on the head being usually incurable ], i revisited the subject, doing a lot a research into safety, mechanism of action. i think i had said a year ago that when the vaccine first came out for humans that my very good doctor had recommended against it. well, for the only time, i wish i had ignored his advice; it had a brilliant and safe mechanism and was 85% effective - which is a lot better than nothing. if i thought i would have success, i would try to convince my vet to vaccinate me. i did vaccinate all 3 dogs this summer/fall and feel very very comfortable with that choice. [ am researching whether i can get the vaccine for myself in a foreign country.]

meanwhile, still need to deal with the absence of Frontline [UNLESS YOU ALL THINK I CAN TRY ONE MORE TIME WHEN TRACER REACHES ADULTHOOD ??] since the vaccine does not offer 100% protection AND to keep zillions of ticks from hitch-hiking into the house and putting still-vaccine-free me in excessive danger. do not have a plan yet.

I only use natural products and I have had great success. I use a cedar spray that I bought on Amazon, you have to spray them each time you go out, Sadie HATES it, it does have a strong smell but it works amazingly well. They never come in with ticks when I use it. I use it on me and the kids as well. During the summer i use DE in my area where the dogs go and it helps as well.

Cedar spray works very well. Lisa, do you buy organic spray? I've tried a spray with a combo of oils, but cedar seems to have the most documented reliable results/reputation. Thor sees the bottle and just "assumes the position" (but he doesn't like it, either).

would love to know the exact spray you use and where on amzn it can be bought. if it is not ready-to-use, how much do you dilute? i will just do what you do and leave it at that. [ i have looked at cedar and other oils per discussions here, but i only find stuff that is priced like some hermes perfume.] thanks so much! i appreciate getting this resolved.

Formally trained as a Pharmaceutical Scientist with a Doctorate in Pharmacy I can tell you that, IMHO, there is greater risk in the dog food your dog eats vs. the HIGHLY regulated (FDA) pharmaceutical industry.

There is a greater risk in the drugs you take every day than what your dog takes once a month.

For example.....

Excedrin is much more dangerous than any pet medicine as it has Acetaminophen as its active ingredient and ~1500 people accidentally overdosed on all products that carry it as an active(Tylenol etc).

So one could argue that Excedrin and Tylenol are much more dangerous than any flea/HW medicine.

While any chemical can be toxic-it's always a risk/reward ratio.

I personally think Trifexis aka Panoramis in Canada/UK/AU ( Spinosad/Milbemycin Oxime) is unfairly maligned as it is prescribed 50 million times a year and the mortality rate is VERY LOW. Spinosad is "Comfortis" and Milbemycin is "Interceptor".

Trifexis is 2x as expensive as Sentinel Tabs which uses Luferon as the antiflea agent instead of Spinosad.

Sentinel even has a variant with Praziquantel in it to deal with tapeworms as Mibemycin in Trifexis handles heartworm, roundworm, tapeworm but not tapeworm AFAIK.

The safest antiflea/heartworm compound, IMO, is Advantage Multi by Bayer, which uses Imidacloprid for fleas and Moxidectin for Heartworm. The new formulation allows dogs with HW microfilaria in the bloodstream to be treated without untoward effects. Imidacloprid is, IMO, one of the safest antiflea meds and if your dog will accept a topical..then Advantage Multi has an excellent track record.

Milbemycin(Trifexis, Inteceptor and Sentinel) has been extensively tested as a prime HW preventative by Michigan State University. I won't include the whole study but here is a primer.

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/heartworm.htm

Unlike antidepressants in humans, which Pharma companies have very little grasp of their mode of actions; the Heartworm/Antiflea compounds are well understood and there is HUGE MONEY to be made if the drug is safe as the Boomers spend more on Pet Meds than the Per Capita incomes of some third world Countries.

Will animals have individual reactions-perhaps. But that, IMO, is not a reason to condemn any drug.

People are free to choose the Holistic route for sure; but here is SC-many folks do not use anything which is a recipe for disaster.

Whatever you use...just make sure you have a full Chemistry panel pulled 1x a year and if your dog exhibits any symptoms of any illness. The 100 dollars a chemistry panel costs can intercept a asymptomatic problem before it becomes an acute situation.

Novartis' Lincoln Nebraska plant was shut down in 2012 for a year so all the Pharma plants are being very careful... The Novartis plant was making Sentinel and Excedrin in the same facility as Dow-Elanco makes Human and animal drugs in the SAME manufacturing plant....This is what gave Trifexis a huge BOOST in sales while Novartis was unable to sell Sentinel(Program in CA, UK AU) for 1.5 years.

When under FDA surveillance when making Excedrin and Sentinel in the same plant-both are made to the same standard. IMO, we have to be mindful that Exedrin kills. The number of Acetaminophen deaths is probably much higher as it is compounded into Vicodin and Percocet addicts blow out their livers with the Acetaminophen.

I have attached the following link where suspected Trifexis deaths have been shown to zero correlation to the drug in three separate cases examined by a pathologist.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Docum ... 0final.pdf

If 1500 dogs die out of 50 million dosed with Trifexis- that is a mortality rate of 1 in 30000.

I do not know how many dogs have died from not taking HW/flea medicine but it is a HUGE number.

The bottom line is there is implicit risk in everything we do and don't do.

Sorry for the long post but these meds are wickedly overpriced for sure, but their safety has been unfairly maligned with anecdotal evidence. Each Pharma company would love to knock the others product off the market so, believe me you, if anyone is looking for data to destroy a dangerous HW drug it is the Pharma companies competing against each other for y

Thanks guys, LOTS of good info here. I'm happy to say Jerry Lee is back to his super happy, puppy self today!

Again though, heart worm preventatives are not my question or concern. I plan on starting JL on a HW prev as soon as the 30 days are up from his last HW treatment. Flea and TICKS are my concern. I will not use natural products or sprays in a tick playground like Maryland is unless they are JUST as effective as topical pharma products. If anyone knows of a natural product that is... I'd need scientific proof.

I was really just interested in if anyone has had Frontline Plus cause bad lethargy in ANY cases. I'm trying to figure out if this was because of the treatment still circulating his body from two weeks ago... OR... if JL is having a reaction to just the FL-P alone. Seems like its probably from giving him FL-P during the recovery period from HWs.

Furthermore, what if his treatment was in the summer time and it was imperative he got 2 monthly doses during the 8 wk HW treatment. Do some dogs get lethargy from that?

JL thanks the responses!!

I dont use any over the counter stuff, only natural for me and my dogs. I cant remember the one I used but if you go to amazon and do a search on Cedar spray for dogs you will come up with them. tea tree oil works good too but it can be more expensive.

I can give you my own proof, I used the cedar spray every day and the girls dont come in with ticks or get fleas. I also give them ACV daily to help rid them of fleas. For me, I dont need more scientific proof than knowing all natural products are better than chemical products. Even if they did the same, id go natural anyway. I dont want chemicals on, in , or around us.

Lisa, what is ACV? thanks for info.
Jerry, as you probably already found out, the HW treatment stays around for 1 full month.
i have the same concern you have re ticks and fleas [ and that HW preventative is NOT in question though i would not use a HW preventative that also kills fleas, with trifexis being the only one that does that. ]. i have never been comfortable with putting chemicals on their backs but i have done it anyway because not to do so was not really an option. may not have that chemical option with Tracer - his reactions were horrendous. hopefully with JL, the interaction with HW treatment explains his sensitivity; i understand the area where the shots go remains incredibly painful for the dog during the whole course. anyway, very glad to know that he is smiling again; such a great dog!
as you are as worried about ticks [ lyme? ] as i am, you might want to look at lyme vaccine for JLee.

johninny wrote:Lisa, what is ACV?

Apple Cider Vinegar

Greg, just for clarity vis-a-vis what you implied: in my 1 1/2 years reading this forum, i have never seen anyone advocate an ''holistic'' approach to HW prevention. most mosquitoes are infected and it is impossible in most [ all? ] places to guarantee no mosquito bite. it is sad as you say that not all dog owners have the knowledge and/or care to take the issue seriously, but have not seen that here.

death is not the issue with trifexis; it is that very sad place between health and death covering 2 types of reactions, one of which turn the dogs into virtual invalids. as these reports do not crop up with the other HW meds, one is drawn to the conclusion that spinosad is the culprit since it is unique to trifexis. Lufenuron is quite different in that it is ''only'' targeted to sterilizing fleas as opposed to killing them, which i suspect is one aggressive step too far for oral delivery.

if JLee's lethargy reaction or Tracer's full-body hot spot reaction to FrontlinePlus were repeated [ not that the latter will be tested ], do you have a suggestion of a topical flea/tick formulation that might have a better outcome that remains as relatively safe and effective as some of us have perceived FL-plus to be in the past?
[as opposed to some other products, FL-plus had the benefit of withstanding daily and prolonged water exposure as my dogs spend many times a day swimming and playing in water during good months. even frigid conditions this year have not stopped them from going way out in the bay trying to catch birds. so if i do use a commercial chemical product, it must withstand their daily water rituals and not require re-application which would simply be too dangerous.]

thanks Stacy.
gee, ACV has so many positive benefits. so it actually works with fleas also? [ we are talking oral intake, right? is there any topical application that anyone advocates?] my dogs get 2 tsp daily. is that enough?

Regarding the mention of tea tree oil (which undeniably has healing properties) can also be very drying to the skin...not that anyone can afford it as a topical treatment.

yes ACV works great for fleas. They dont like the smell, you can also make a mixture of ACV and water in a spray bottle and spray it right on their coat.

Typically it is 1 tsp. for small dogs and 1 tbs. for medium-large dogs in their food. My guys get ACV with every meal.

You can also bathe your dog and then apply a 50:50 mix of apple cider vinegar and water as a rinse (I use this with my min-pin who is very yeasty and it helps balance the PH naturally). Allow your dog to air dry. The ACV will help kill fleas, ticks, ringworm, etc. It also helps with open sores/infection. You can also spray your dog with apple cider vinegar before going out for a walk in order to help repel fleas and ticks naturally.

Fleas, ticks, flies, bacteria, parasites, ringworm, etc prefer a less acidic external environment. ACV creates a more acidic external environment and a more alkaline system on the inside...the exact opposite of an ideal environment for these pests.