Dutch Shepherd Forum

Buying a "In Training" harness for my pup today the lack of common sense is just crazy. Going for a nice morning walk with my pup and people just keep walking up and reaching out to pet him. No warning or even politely asking just reaching right out there. Thankfully he has had good reactions and is very confident so although they have startled him we were fine.I had an even worse experience the other day when i took him to outdoor world to give him some environmental challenges a mother literally pulled her kid out of the shopping cart couldn't have been more than two and proceeds to tell her son he can go up and pet the puppy. Thankfully i overheard her and was able to fend off the two year old. I very sternly explained to the mother that my puppy was in training and that in the future she should always ask to pet someones dog. Sheesh that just asking for you child to be attacked. Has anyone else had these experiences? Has having a harness labeling the dog as "In Training" or "DO NOT PET" helped anyone? now time for a beer

somewhere here i related that an elderly couple shoved their heads INTO my car WHILE it was moving backward into a parking space AND INTO the space of THREE DS in the backseat. so these people were 4 feet into the street with their upper bodies in a moving car and their faces up against 3 agitated dogs. talk about slamming on the brakes.

[ then i got a ticket for my car being not fully parked when i ran around to get the couple's heads out of my backseat and calm the situation. ]

so, i can relate. so much more than the above story, but this one takes the cake.

I have a DO NOT PET harness. It is by far the best $35 I have ever spent. Ice is not a friendly guy. It takes awhile for him to warm up and decide to like a person. He does not like to have strangers pet him. As we all know, Dutch Shepherds are pretty unique and you don't see many around so people tend to want to touch them. Ice and I went to Petsmart once and before we were all the way in the door an employee was heading toward us already leaning down with her hand out to pet - then she saw the harness and stood back up and asked about Ice from a safe comfortable distance of 3' or so. perfect!!!

I have to say that I have been lucky. When Radar and I are walking, most parents will hide their children, and adults will cross over to the other side of the street.

I wonder if it's Radar or me that's so intimidating?

I can feel your pain !!! People just dont think !!! So far most people run in fear when they see my girls, but its the people with just dogs that let them just come up. Sadie usually gives a good warning growl then that is backed up by me yelling, " NO you cannot let your dog sniff mine !!"

I also posted a story of a time when I was at the gas station, and a man opened my truck door to turn it off [ Diesel] and it was like a slo mo movie, Here I am running towards the truck [ I was at the rear talking to some friends ] saying " NOOOOOOOOOOO" [ Matrix moment] and he opens the truck door and guess who greeted him ?? Sadie and Thalie, he jumped to the other side of the pumps and said " Ill let you turn it off"

Hahaha wow I would have flipped if someone opened up my door they would have to run from me way before my pup Some people just have no sense of boundaries.

HA, He was closer than I was, but yeah ! I would never go up to someones vehicle. I bet he wont again too!

I, too, have had those stupid, awful, mindless encounters with people, but mostly with other dogs--not so much with DSs. Most of my experience with DSs and the general public is: they steer clear. If they want to admire or ask questions, it's from a distance, and there's only been a couple of exceptions to that.

ICE: So, okay, your guy isn't sappy toward strangers right off (like most DSs). I wonder about the DNP harness as an indicator that could bite you in the butt, legally. This is a crazy world that often operates backwards; I can hear a judge saying: "Well, why'd you have the DO NOT PET harness on him if you weren't concerned he'd bite?" You'd say because people are stupid, not because my dog is a biter. Judge doesn't know you, your dog, and doesn't care that a stranger walked up and ((insert stupid behavior here)).

Don't get me wrong--I love those harnesses! Just wondering aloud....thinking about "how wrong it is" to have "Beware of Dog" or "Dog on Property" signs on your OWN property.

I envision wearing a sandwich sign, myself: "My dog doesn't like stupid. Are you?"...or..."My dog CAN fix stupid. Want to get fixed?" (I figure most people would have to think about that a minute--enough time for us to get far enough away to prevent them from doing something before thinking.)

the problem is, when you KNOW that your animal can inflict pain, it is your responsibility to warn others. Like the red bow on a ponys tail warns that this horse kicks and stay away.

Then the judge can get you for negligence. We know this breed has the propensity for aggressiveness, so, yes, we should have the " i will rip your arm off' harness.

I agree....I'm feeling a disconnect, though, between the DNP and not being able to have signs on your own property. I could be wrong, but I see them as one in the same with different locations. If my dog bit someone on my property (say someone jumped a gate that reads: Do not enter. Dog on property., which has happened), I could get nailed because I put up a sign-----that gets interpreted as I knew I had a dog that might bite.

(Anything with teeth can bite.)

Not arguing. We need to keep our beasts and other safe any way we can. Just seems, legally, it's a catch-22.

I have a NEON orange harness with "do not pet" and "in training" on both sides. Best money EVER. I think I got the harness from Elite K9, with an added handle on top, and the badges off eBay. People give my guy and I space and it has REALLY helped with his confidence in being able to pass people without going off. Some parents will literally yank their children away from him once they see the vest lol. We've had troubles on the days I forget it - people just reach out and pet him. Drives me absolutely bonkers. He now gives signs he's not okay with this, which people promptly ignore and get mad when he goes Kujo (which usually happens in the five seconds I'm not aware someone is petting him, sans harness). People seem to restrain themselves when they see the harness. The "in training" also helps if he decides to act up. I've overheard a lot of people walk past us saying, "oh, he's in training. He must be a puppy" or something as I wrestle him away from whatever set him off. So there's a bit of a forgiving attitude rather than the "your dog is horribly behaved" we get without the harness. Most dogs in our PSA club have "working dog do not pet" harnesses. These dogs are friendly to people walking up and petting but most of the time the owners don't want the hassle.

As for the legality… Best bet would be check your state laws. Here in TX we're a One Bite Law state, which means we're VERY strict on dog bites. It's my job as owner to prove, if something ever happens, I have done everything in my power prevent or stop the dog from biting. So if someone walks up and pets Hendrix and he bites, I must have verbally warned the person, been pulling the dog away, and once the dog bit, tried to get him off instantly. I consider his harness as part of the "proving I've done everything to protect the public" stipulation. While it certainly could be argued "you knew your dog was hostile" with a DNP harness, it's also argued as a warning to the public to NOT PET for a variety of reasons - health, training purposes for tracking or security dogs, or simply a "I don't want anyone petting my dog because I hate people". Some dogs do jobs and don't need the distraction of people walking up to pet and fawn over the dog. I once knew a seizure alert dog that had a DNP harness - he needed to be focused on his job and not who would give him the next pet. Now, for my guy, if someone goes against the harness and my verbal warning, then I am not liable for what happens because I've done everything except shove the person away. It's not my fault you were dumb enough to not heed the warnings; same applies if you enter my property without my permission and my dog bites you. You are committing a crime and I am not liable.

As for the signs… I would think "beware of dog" is an implied intimidation, which gives leeway for arguing about "knowledge of an aggressive dog", and therefore up to a judge to decide legal standing. Though an act of trespassing is enough for any judge to give pause before condemning the dog. A sign like "dog on premises" or I think someone once said they had a sign that said "in case of fire please rescue our ____" don't imply a threat or intimidation, and would be less likely to be called upon as evidence of an "aggressive dog". But again, it depends on how many cases set precedent and what the state law stipulates. I've thought many times of getting a car decal for the windows that says "warning working dog inside" but the liability makes me pause.

I'd be really curious in hearing lawyers talk about this… It's a really interesting subject and the above are basically my opinions from reading laws from one state. So many possibilities and idiots in the world to keep our fur friends safe from.

I can so relate to this kind of stupidity. I really don't understand why people just assume they can come up and reach toward someone else's dog. I grew up with GSDs and my mom still taught us not to approach strange dogs without permission, and showed us to let a dog come to us for attention when we had permission.

I never understood quite as well as I do now how right she was, as I have a fear aggressive GSD mix. People gush over him when we are out walking and rush over exclaiming how beautiful he is, in a singsong baby voice, and immediately are greeted with growling and snarling and raised hackles. the only way he'll accept a person is if that person completely ignores him until he's ready to make the first move.

Fortunately, most get out of the way or cross the street nervously (because GSD), but I would love to know where to get a "do not pet" harness thingy.

(Side note: we are meeting with a veterinary behaviorist on Monday for our GSD's issues)

I agree it is a hard call - use the harness or not- but in my experiences it has been wonderful. People stay away and I have heard some talking and saying "he must be training" Perfect! Think whatever you want but don't try to hug him. I do train and compete with him so the less people he interacts with the better for me. I live in the country and only have small towns close so maybe it would be different if I were in a large city?

Mobil - you can get them on almost any site. Elitek9, all-k9, Dean Tyler.... It depends on what you like best and price. We personally love this one http://www.elitek9.com/ID-Patrol-Harnes ... tinfo/H02/ and I bought the ID panels separately from another site since I wanted reflective ones. Just google "working dog harness" or "service dog harness" or "ID panel harness".

I agree. The only dogs I "rush towards" are puppies and that's if my friends own them, they have already met me several times, and I know the puppies are fine with it. Other dogs I ignore until they approach and seem fine or I have verbal permission from the owners.

that's so helpful, thanks, Kira!

I ordered two sets of patches so it will say both "in training" and "do not pet" I figure that covers all my bases lol I'd rather do that then continue to have random people try to interact with my pup. He's got such a lovely temperament I'd just hate to have someone give him a bad experience and do anything to damage his confidence.oh and totally off topic but I love eliteK9 I have gotten so many good products from there page I especially love the crate fans with the cooling packs allows me to take my pup with me most places and is a life saver when we are training with our group as he is in and out of the car

Raven wrote:I agree....I'm feeling a disconnect, though, between the DNP and not being able to have signs on your own property. I could be wrong, but I see them as one in the same with different locations. If my dog bit someone on my property (say someone jumped a gate that reads: Do not enter. Dog on property., which has happened), I could get nailed because I put up a sign-----that gets interpreted as I knew I had a dog that might bite.

(Anything with teeth can bite.)

Not arguing. We need to keep our beasts and other safe any way we can. Just seems, legally, it's a catch-22.

You are absolutely right on that one, backwards, I know.