Dutch Shepherd Forum

Tonight I am very proud of Mr. H. Most of you know of the problems we've had with stranger aggression and how he has been slowly making progress. Tonight was a milestone. He asked for a walk so off on a walk we went. As we were passing a fence, I start hearing this "weeeee! Hoooooo! Waaaaaaooooooohhhhh!" screeching that sounded like a dying fox or something. This is right as we pass the fence and see the house the fence is attached to, lined with bushes. I swear there was a psychedelic-looking bush dancing, with a small child frantically throwing his arms in the air making the horrible noise, and a frantically pacing pair of legs with no body dancing on branches. Less than 10 feet from us.

After making sure I had not managed to ingest LSD or some other hallucinogen (nope, just coffee) I realized that these phantom things are actually all people doing garden work (except the kid, still not sure what he was doing). I send up a quick prayer that Mr. H doesn't flip a poo on them because they are some odd people and I really can't grab up much of our 6 foot line in a millisecond so someone is gonna get scared poo-less.

Without ushering a command he kept walking, never stopping, and while his hackles were up and he was giving them the stare down (and maybe the whale eye at the kid - I was too), he didn't make a sound. Didn't even twitch towards them. Even when Dying Fox Kid tossed a branch at him. Maybe it was a stick. I'm not sure; it was brown and long. But it barely made it a foot before falling harmlessly to the ground. Again, not even a twitch. And that's when I screamed out "GOOD BOY" in glee and the Dying Fox Kid mimicked me as Mr. H and I skipped across the road in pure delight like we were in some sort of Broadway play.

GREAT story that shows the pay off of your TIRELESS work with Mr. H.

So....

There was a lot going on--suddenly. He hackled yet kept going. You marked the behavior that you saw as acceptable. Hackling is a reaction, but he didn't react otherwise--as you knew he could have.

I see this as progress that should be marked, even though he hackled. I know people who would disagree...that because he hackled, he was still reactive, and therefore the Attaboy reinforced the hackling.

Not arguing. I think--KNOW--the work you have done with your boy. This is progress. I would have done the same thing.

All this said, are you working toward diminishing his reaction of hackling?

fantastic! we are all such crazy proud parents of such moments. sounds like the 2 of you have really made it.

Sharon, more of your thoughts on hackles, please. it would never have occurred to me to try to train away hackles. i watch them carefully and with great interest, but...

a little background: i have had 6 DS live with me; 4 seldom showed ANY hackling - just a bit when you would most expect like a suspected intrusion on the property; 2 have had raised hackles at any encounter of a being or a suspicious object - like a door open that is usually closed. Trace-Dog had to have spent much of his time outside the house with his hackles up: any meeting of new people - and yet he otherwise gave the appearance of outward and enthusiastic friendliness that gave people the feeling of really being embraced by him. Tracer's hackles go up at the drop of a hat and go down very reluctantly, which was the same for TraceDog. in fact, with him - TD - once up, the hackles took a very, very long time to go down. based on that experience, i always assumed that TD [ at least him - still getting to KNOW Tracer ] simply had an usually high level of adrenaline production and so any extremely slight elevation would send the hackles northward for a while. raised hackles by themselves never in practice had any significance - just extra adrenaline as a precaution was my assumption. if he had any real concern, his body would stiffen and all parts of him became more deliberate and precise.

any thoughts on this relative to comments you made to Kira? could my analysis be correct [ at least w/r/t TD ]? should i worry about Tracer's raised hackles if he is otherwise, like Mr. Hendrix, doing fine/seeming unperturbed by whatever? [at the moment, i would equate Tracer's state more to Hendrix' than to TD's.]

edit: and i guess central to my question and underlying surprise is that i would not have even thought it was possible to train away increased production of adrenaline. [????]

John, here's my thoughts on that.

There's a part of the nervous system in all living beings that prompt an adrenaline rush in response to threatening or otherwise disturbing stimuli. In dogs, that can come in the form of raised hackles. With you and me, it might present as an increase in blood pressure.

Any prolonged or consistent stress, regardless how it presents, is ultimately detrimental to the body, obviously.

So, if I know that high blood pressure can damage my health, I need to learn how to control my reaction in the presence of triggers that typically raise it.

If we have a dog that hackles a lot, their body is being taxed. Indeed, it is a form of communication. And they are telling us, in their way, they are stressed.

Some pass off that hackles are merely raised to make them appear larger. I wouldn't argue that. But the act of needing to look larger stems from the need to thwart potential danger.

If our roles as leaders is to take the responsibility off our dogs, then our responsibility is to alleviate/lessen the stress from the stimuli that makes them react. In this particular thread instance, hackle.

Not all dogs hackle. There can other signs of stress.

Kira has shown that through working with Hendrix, she has altered his perception and response to stimuli that was previously a trigger for more than raised hackles. But the thing is...it wasn't so much a conditioned response as it was she has shown him he doesn't have to worry as much as he used to, that his Mom is in charge.

While his overall response was spectacular, he still communicated stress. So...are her plans to try and take it to the next level. Which would be no reaction. No hackles. Life is good and here we are just walking and having a good time.

Great catch Sharon! Yup I don't necessarily like hackles - for me, it depends on the situation and I usually try to discourage it. I allowed it as that was one weird situation and even my shoulders were a bit hunched, so I can't blame him when I'm having equal weird thoughts. I did praise as we sat with our backs to them and his hackles were lowered. I try not to praise for any behavior that could lead to aggression, sometimes I fail, but it is part of my mental check list. Also, for some weird reason, H's hackles have never been one of his 7 Signs of Impending Doom as I call them, more of a communication of his absolute "mom this is really weird and I really don't know if I need to be protective or scared or annoyed or happy".

Way to go, H!!! Good job, buddy!!!

Way to gooooooooooooooo!!!!

Sharon. Wow. thanks for that perspective. I never really thought about it like that. I do alot of stress management with people but never really put the knowledge to dogs. That would make sense. Stress taxes our system, it would theirs as well.

Sorry for the disjointed replies - H was a terror until he got a walk. I totally agree with Shanon and I do try to show him other ways instead of hackling and don't encourage if I see it. That being said, his hackling is a bit abnormal as it's almost a sign of stress or a question. I've seen him hackle when he's sniffing out a plant or jumping on my brother, none of which as far as I can tell would be unduly stressful. I've even watched him chewing a bone in a quiet house and hackle for a second. Sometimes I think it's his way of asking a question as I watch him like a hawk the second I see them. The second I respond with a "calm" for when he's stressing, a "nom nom" if he's chewing, a "sit for play", or whatever I'm using to mark the situation, hackles immediately go down. He also hackles a lot less as I mark things to the point where I barely see them anymore, and certainly not when he's about to go Kujo due to a threat, only when he's unsure and about to go Kujo. Other times it is indeed a "WTF! What do I do?" stress reaction, the latter being what I saw with Dying Fox Kid, which I probably didn't help by going "OMG what the heck is happening here?"