Dutch Shepherd Forum

So...I started Thor on one RAW dinner every other day, separated by at least 12 hours from his kibble breakfast. Chicken leg quarter. On RAW dinner days, I only give raw vegetables and coconut oil between kibble breakfast and dinner.

One of the things I stressed about was he's a gulper. Someone a long time ago said not to worry; she had a gulper and there was never a problem. Uh-huh. So, before his first chicken leg quarter, I read up on and watched videos on how to help a choking dog.

First night, as he neared the end of the quarter, there was piece just a bit bigger than the size of a computer mouse. Down the hatch the whole thing went. It went down all right, but that night that piece came flying out of his stomach like a missile. No vomit or wretching accompanied it. He just stood there, normal, and it just shot out.

Second night when I saw he was down to that last piece, about the same size, I took it and cut it up. All was good. Nothing came up later.

Third night as he neared the end, the piece was about the size of two computer mouses and he swallowed it. I know throats stretch, but I can't believe that went down. But...about 10 hours later, it came up. Nothing else. Just the piece.

If I cut the pieces up, he's proven he'll gulp them. Any suggestions? What's the next RAW I can feed? (Something typical...nothing like elk or bison or....)

On a good note: he wants to take his prize and walk around with it, deciding on the perfect spot to chow down (based on night #1), but he stays on the tarp I lay down. He's such a good boy.

HAHAHAHA, Sorry for laughing but I went through the same thing. I was terrified of the bones, I had such panic attacks for a while. I dont feed bone every day though, bone should be only 10%. Mine will go chew on them for a bit and if I can catch them when its small ill take it away, Im sure it would be fine but it will ease my anxiety. I feel chicken, meat, liver, organs.

check this link out.

http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html

You need to be careful with too much bone. A chicken quarter contains anywhere from 27-32% bone. Most dogs only need around 10%. Elli gets around 15-20% because of her intestinal problems, but I'm a poop monitor. If you're feeding kibble, that already has an excessive amount of calcium, so your bone would need to decrease significantly. I've always heard to stick to boneless if feeding kibble as well, as long as their poops don't turn loose.

To prevent gulping and vomiting, you may want to feed frozen. That always slows my dogs down. I would personally do boneless pork shoulder or butt mainly if you're feeding kibble. Beef hearts are also nice, boneless, and cheap. If you have a butcher or meat store nearby, you can usually order turkey hearts for $0.60-$0.70/lb if you buy in bulk. I buy about 80lbs of turkey hearts every 2 months. My dogs mainly eat that, pork spare ribs, chicken quarters, and organ meat, plus I dehydrate chicken feet and feed it as a snack.

Cut it up in his dinner portions right when you buy it, put it in ziplock bags and freeze. Feed straight from the freezer. Even the turkey hearts will freeze into a solid mass.

Ice is also a gulper - I have had to pull a wing out because he tried to swallow without chewing. I mostly stick to chicken necks for bone. The meat I buy has a small amount of bone and the additional chicken necks with the evening meal is perfect for my guys. An additional bonus is they are cheap when you buy 40 pound boxes. I just repackage into a few days worth and freeze.

Thanks, all. I guess I misunderstood something in an earlier post about quarters. I was trying this route for the bone...to help keep his teeth pearly since I seem to be losing the battle on my own. About a month ago, I also broke down and bought him an antler (which I worried about before b/c of a chipped canine). But unless I smear it with coconut oil, he's not interested in it, and once the oil is gone, he leaves it. Sigh.

His stools are always firm (with lots of carrots), so until I go all RAW, I'll stick to boneless. Well, feeding RAW five or six meals out of fourteen per week, even if boneless, is that less GF kibble going in him and, hopefully, helping slow the dental issue.

Sharon, i can only relate my own current experience. i have been feeding 2 1/2 meals a day til a week ago, plus other snacks [ carrots, bananas, melon, etc] and bedtime dessert [ yogurt or cottage cheese with herbs ]. 1st major meal was all kibble with occasional exceptions [ raw goat, eggs, rare roast beef, merrick canned organ meats, roast turkey, etc. ], 2nd major meal is sardines or sometimes the canned organ meat that gets mixed with nutritional supplement from ''platinum'', vitamins, fresh greens and herbs, oils and vinegar, and vegetable of the day, and a small 3rd meal mid-evening which was kibble. during the day they have each gotten one big carrot - like a toothbrush after their major morning intake of kibble. and, of course, they have dozens of antlers and old bones sitting around the house. but unless it is ''new'' and ''fresh'', the antlers and bones do not get the avid attention that is needed to make a difference for their teeth, tho Tracer gnaws on them pretty consistently. and they have been refreshed fairly frequently; i have one more round of antlers left in inventory before shipping a new carload from elk.usa. also use dental sticks, but have been slack on that recently.

i have been getting more and more distressed [ like very distressed now ] at how bad their teeth look at such a young age, having had a 12 1/2 year old dog with gleaming teeth [ who never ate kibble, but did not do a ''raw diet'']. so i have eliminated their evening kibble so that they get kibble only once [ in the morning ] and then i have all day to try to counter-act the effects on the teeth. each gets his big carrot not long after breakfast. have to stock up on dental bones and be more consistent, order more antlers and introduce new ones to the crew more frequently, and will soon try marrow bones a couple times a week [TD got one every day]. i am trying this, but i am not terribly hopeful that it will make a big difference. i think i have to feed the TraceDog way despite the cost and inconvenience for 3 dogs. but i will give this a try first.

I am the one that suggested a chicken leg quarter to start out with to see how he did since you were asking about chicken bones specifically. It's also a great starter food to see how a dog will handle RAW. Yes, CLQ's can be a bit on the boney side, but as long as you don't go over 20-25%, you are fine. And not all CLQ's are created equal, some are bonier than others. The ratio's don't have to be perfect every meal...balance over time...balance over time...balance over time. If you try to make each meal exactly 80-10-10, you will drive yourself crazy. I know many people who use CLQ's as their staple food and have healthy, active dogs (from puppies to seniors).

A big hunk of boneless meat can accomplish positive dental results...it's the gnawing that achieves the teeth cleaning. If you toss Thor a 12 oz hunk of raw meat, he will have to gnaw through it and that will "brush" his teeth. DISCLAIMER: I have no idea how much Thor weighs...I was just using 12 oz as an example.

If he gulps, feed partially-to fully frozen meals.

Stacy_R wrote:you will drive yourself crazy

Already there!

Stacy_R wrote:I am the one that suggested a chicken leg quarter to start out

I also lurked in a couple RAW forums and lots of folks suggested the same for the worried newbies who had posted they were scared to take the plunge.

I don't really know what Thor weighs; he hasn't had to go to the vets since his last rabies. Maybe 75 pounds? Lots of muscle.

I can get frozen wild-caught salmon (boneless) for about $5 a pound. So...out of five or six RAW dinners a week, one or two of salmon, one or two of beef or turkey hearts or boneless pork, one or two of CLQ.

When I get gizzards (or liver), I usually chop them small for treats. I can use gizzards as a meal, yes?

i think it has been stated here that freezing kills [ ??] the parasite in raw salmon. are we sure of the science and the result there? usually freezing does nothing but preserves, so it is for sure that this is different for these parasites? just want to be sure if Thor will be eating raw salmon. [ sounds yummy! can i join him? ]

johninny wrote:i think it has been stated here that freezing kills [ ??] the parasite in raw salmon. are we sure of the science and the result there? usually freezing does nothing but preserves, so it is for sure that this is different for these parasites?

Okay. That's it. The boy will have to survive on eating air.

johninny wrote:i think it has been stated here that freezing kills [ ??] the parasite in raw salmon.

Yes. You want to deep freeze for 7-10 days. This is the same as if you are deep freezing any wild-caught meat.

Raven wrote:I can use gizzards as a meal, yes?

Yes. Gizzards are considered muscle meat. I don't know that he will actually chew them, but you can certainly make a meal out of them. I use gizzards to off-set a meal that has a high bone content. Also, don't be afraid of mixing leftover pieces of different proteins into what is affectionately termed "franken-prey."

Raven wrote:I also lurked in a couple RAW forums and lots of folks suggested the same for the worried newbies who had posted they were scared to take the plunge.

CLQ's are the standard "intro" to raw fare...

Raven wrote:I don't really know what Thor weighs; he hasn't had to go to the vets since his last rabies. Maybe 75 pounds? Lots of muscle.

When feeding raw meals, the standard to feed is 2%-3% of body weight. You can start anywhere and adjust if he gains or loses.
If you go off of 75 lbs:
2% = 24 oz daily would be 12 oz per meal
2.5% = 30 oz daily would be 15 oz per meal
3% = 36 oz daily would be 18 oz per meal

Stacy, are you saying wild caught meat like deer, rabbit, also needs to be frozen for a week before feeding? if so, to protect against what?
salmon and its kind seems unique to me in that its resident parasite kills as opposed to maybe sickens. how are these fish pathogens different that freezing has any effect on them?
sorry - i do not mean to be difficult, but really want to understand this.
[ i know you are not the only one who said this. i think Stephanie also stated this. i should have asked how and why the first time around when everyone was focused on the fish question.]

I'm thinking out loud here (always a good thing to do online), but since he is a gulper, I'm thinking of freezing whole gizzards in ice cube trays with some water. He loves ice cubes and chews them rather than breaking them up and swallowing the pieces. With other proteins, I could cut up in pieces and freeze with some water in those small containers for taking salad dressing and nuts to work. In my head, this works....

Thanks for all the information, suggestions and clarifications. And now...off to . I KNOW I can get that right.

johninny wrote:Stacy, are you saying wild caught meat like deer, rabbit, also needs to be frozen for a week before feeding? if so, to protect against what?

It's a precaution against extant parasites.

Raven wrote: Thanks for all the information, suggestions and clarifications. And now...off to . I KNOW I can get that right.

practice makes perfect...

John,

Clearly, I'm a rough beginner in RAW, though I'll mention that in the past when I'd run low on GF kibble, I fed Thor raw salmon a few times (12 hours after morning kibble). Someone gave me salmon, frozen, and I hate the stuff, so I thawed it and fed it to him on those occasions. It was life as usual, no consequences.

That's when I wasn't over-thinking everything.

johninny wrote:i think it has been stated here that freezing kills [ ??] the parasite in raw salmon. are we sure of the science and the result there? usually freezing does nothing but preserves, so it is for sure that this is different for these parasites? just want to be sure if Thor will be eating raw salmon. [ sounds yummy! can i join him? ]

John, I'm certainly no expert here, but you made me curious as well. The info I found covers a range of worms, but I guess the dangerous one for dogs is a type of fluke. According to the FDA, there are a couple of methods for killing parasites in fish. One is commercial freezing, which is -35F for 15 hours. The other is freezing at -4F for 7 days. If your home freezer doesn't get that low (most apparently don't), you could be inviting trouble...

Here's a link specifically for dogs and raw salmon:
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... oning.aspx

And here's a couple for just general info about parasites in raw fish:
http://seafoodhealthfacts.org/seafood_s ... asites.php
http://www.eatsushi.com/article.asp?X=628

You want to freeze for 7-10 days. This is the same as if you are deep freezing any wild-caught meat.

Eric, thank you so much for clarifying that freezing can be effective, but that it has to be at certain low temperatures that may be below where people normally set their freezer temperatures.

now i need to find out how to get raw wild salmon so cheaply! and if my freezer can reliably go that low.

Stores around here only get in loin cuts which they cut up, so I was out of luck on turkey/beef hearts today, but I swung in a little shop that sells only "exotic" meats.

I haven't researched this item yet: ostrich (blackwing) knuckles. The bones are hollow (look kind of like honeycombs where marrow normally would be). I wouldn't think it'd be a meal...? $5.00 a knuckle. Guy said a lady whose dog has a lot of food allergies uses them....

The guy also said he's ordered hearts before and that I'm looking at about $8.00 a pound. "Wait! Don't you have the decimal in the wrong place?" He didn't think that was funny.

Good information on the salmon. So, at first read through, I thought that as long as it was a minimum of -32 degrees for at least seven days that it didn't need freezing below -32, but when I re-read it, my take-away was no...deep-freeze only. (?)