Dutch Shepherd Forum

I sometimes wonder if Xander loves me and if he is happy. These are the things he does that confirms he loves me.

1) when he knows I'm heading to the couch to lay down and chill and he darts past me, flops on the couch taking up all the room and shows his belly for a rub.

2) when I cuddle with him after he hogs the couch and he gives me snout kisses.

3) when I get up in the morning and I tell him wait I have to have coffee first and he sits beside me with his head on my leg while I rush through coffee to go out for our first playtime.

4) when we go to bed and I tell him bedtime and he jumps up and squirms as close as he can and cuts his little eyes up at me and licks my hand.

5) when he's laying down and I say I need some loving and he runs over plops on top of me and gives "violent" kisses.

6) when I give him his dinner and after he eats he comes over and nudges my leg and gives kisses.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some but these are the ones I can think of right now. Guess Xander loves to give kisses. I don't care what anybody says, dogs can love.

I can just look at Sadie and see the love. Her whole body wiggles and squirms and she just explodes with love, I get kisses until my face falls off. I get the violent kisses too, Im surprised I still have a nose ! Sadie will take a toy and push it on my let to play and give me that puppy dog look " PULEEEEEEEES" Sadie oozes love.

Thalie on the other hand, Dosnt show her love so easy, she will just stand besides me and give me her big brown Thalie eyed look. She dosnt give out to many kisses, sometimes if your lucky, you will get one. She shows her love in a more quiet way.

I don't know about love but appreciates me.
Listens to me, here, there, everywhere, such a good doggy. Learning to lie down or sit when we play catch instead of jumping at me. Waits in the car till I get his leash on then I say let’s go instead of bolting out of the vehicle. If I take a nap parks under the couch or bed and doesn't move even if there's food involved until I get up. Noses me when I'm eye to eye instead of paw me like he used to. Nuzzles my neck when I give him a hug.

I think H has his moments of showing me he loves me. I'm probably one of the only people he gives very few kisses to, but I'm also the only one he listens to even when I'm not telling him a command. I'm the one who can touch and poke and prod without fear of him nipping or attempting to bite and I'm the one who can calm him with a quiet word. I'm the one he misses and attempts to dig out of my bed (like he thinks I'm trapped in there) and I'm the one he follows around like a satellite without prompting or the promise of food. He'll also go into very awesome obedience mode when I'm doing something stressful and can't concentrate on him, like getting us across heavy traffic on a walk or navigating a heavy crowd. I would say this is just examples of good obedience but I've seen him lovey dove-y with his favorite people and he doesn't listen to them as well as he listens to me. I think that in his own way, he's telling me he loves me best because he listens and wants to be near me.

The reason I posted this is I have been doing a lot of reading on dog behavior. In the process I came across some articles on dog emotions. Whereas I had always heard that dogs do not have emotions, including love, there is new studies showing that this may not be true. I have always heard that everything dogs do is instinct based and what appears to be emotions are what they do to get what they want. Self gratification.

The research indicated that dogs have the same "chemicals" in there brain that people do that results in love. It also said that dogs emotions developed to that of a 2 1/2 years old child. Which includes the emotions of love, excitement, joy, distress, fear, anger, etc... However they do not developed guilt, shame, pride, and contempt.

I found it very interesting. So I started to pay attention to Xander's behaviors to see if I could determine if his show of "love" was really love. It is not easy to tell, but I think he does love. If he doesn't I'm going to pretend that he does anyway.

I'm not sure what to think about dogs not having the ability to feel guilt. What should we call it when a dog has done something it knows it shouldn't, but when you walk in the room, they get that "Oh, crrrraaaap...." way about them?

I'm not talking about when we prompt that reaction through us telegraphing dissatisfaction (whatever) through body language or our voice. I'm talking about those instances that you don't even know they've done something...but there they are, throwing themselves under the wheels of the bus.

There is so much that we don't know about so many things.

This is what I have read. ..

Now many people might argue that they have seen evidence which indicates that their dog is capable of experiencing guilt. The usual situation is where you come home and your dog starts slinking around and showing discomfort, and you then find that he or she has left a smelly brown deposit on your kitchen floor. It is natural to conclude that the dog was acting in a way that shows that it is feeling guilty about its transgression. However this is not guilt, but simply the more basic emotion of fear. The dog has learned that when you appear and his droppings are visible on the floor, bad things happen to him. What you see is his fear of punishment—he will never feel guilt.

I have never corrected Xander for pooping or peeing on the floor unless I catch him in the act. Of course he is completely house trained now, he occasionally gets an upset stomach and I have awoke to a pile of poop. I just go get my cleaning supplies and take care of business. I don't do ANY correction, no verbal correction, not even a "omg, look what you have done" no signs or words of aggravation. Therefore when I wake up and discover the poop Xander shows no signs of "guilt". He acts completely the same as any other non poop morning.

My friends daughter, who is not so mature and knowledgable on training will walk in and see poop or pee from her dog. She does not spank or discipline him but does make a big deal about it. Like "omg, look what you did, naughty dog, I can't believe you did this". Her demeanor if aggravation and disappointed. Her dog picks up on this and hence shows "guilt" whenever she walks in and there is poop to be found. He does this before the poop is discovered. He already knows from past times that when it's found there is going to be dissatisfaction and displeasure with the poop.

Just my theory... not necessarily a correct theory... but a theory anyway.

i thought i had written on this subject [ emotions ] before but cannot find. but using new techniques, real scientists are now finding that even a lobster experiences certain emotions and fish experience pain.

those old ideas so widely spread even among scientists [ though usually not in relevant fields of study, like physicists spouting on about animal behavior! ] that animals that share almost all the same DNA as us magically do not share traits that various ''advanced'' cultures told themselves put humans on a plane above all other creatures is just such bunk. for example, human and chimp DNA is 98.5% identical; ditto for wolves and dogs. for a tiny bit more variation in dog DNA you can get a raccoon or a sea urchin - both close relatives of the dog! for a bigger but still modest variation in human DNA you can get a mouse or a fruit fly.

to imagine that dogs do not experience the full array, intensity, and depth of emotions that humans experience simply does not make sense in terms of close, experienced observation or in terms of what the most advanced scientific thinking tell us. now, not all humans are capable of equal amounts of each emotion; each brain is different and some seemingly cannot summon certain emotions at all. some of these variations probably even run in genetic lines. the same can be said of dogs - an observation that, of course, leads me to observe that most DS have an emotional complexity and depth that sets them apart from many breeds, but that is also evident in other breeds [ akita comes to mind for obvious reasons].

guilt is a tricky emotion to define or identify with consistency in any being outside a cultural context and separate from the FEAR of punishment[jail] or of being ''found-out''and shamed. but in my non-scientific observation, i have no doubt that i have seen shame, pride, and contempt exhibited by dogs.

so to be clear, i think this notion that dogs' emotional capabilities are limited to that of 2-year-old humans seems as obsolete and out-of-touch with reality as the Victorian idea that animals are incapable of emotion. and certain emotions develop more than others with age in humans and dogs. w/r/t emotions, practice makes perfect. if a human or a dog has not been in an environment that encourages production of 'love' chemicals, then that person or dog will not exhibit love, but barring a defect, the ability to develop love is present in both.

HA--John--I was going to use lobsters as the example of things we always thought versus things we learn. Indeed, in controlled studies, lobsters, once they knew what would cause pain, actively avoided it.

I guess the more obvious/prevalent displays of "uh-oh" by a dog would be from having an accident in the house or tearing something apart. I don't know that I would assign fear of punishment to all "uh-oh" displays 100% of the time, especially with intuitive, smart/thinking dogs, but that's just my own reflective thought, which I'm sure is riddled with forgotten details over years of having dogs as companions.

As for "love," when you posed the question, everything I thought of I considered a result of obedience, a trained response, or a display of respect. I don't discard the idea that they can feel love...as yet, I haven't found an instance where I'd call it love as we define it.

I could go on endlessly about the differences of love vs. protection, fear vs. respect, etc. and all the human bias that might accompany any of it.

Good topic, regardless.

Quite some time ago I read a book (sorry, can't remember the author or title) that talked directly about whether a human and a dog could experience love.

The author then went on to define that two people in love strive to make the sum of the parts better than the whole, and therefore a dog could not truly be in a love relationship. Mutual respect and possibly affection were the best that could happen - never love.

Get out a dictionary if you must, but defining love is impossible.

It's like the judicial definition of porn. I know it when I see it.

Do I believe that dogs can show emotions - yes.

Do I perceive some love from my fur buddies - yes.

Do I care whether someone says it's not possible - heck no.

They trained dogs to lie still in a cat scan machine. The same areas of the brain light up that we have for various emotions or reactions. Showed pictures of the dogs owner and the same areas light up that we have light up when shown pictures of a spouse or sibling. They have the same emotions as we do as all higher mammal brains are structured relatively the same. They lack some of the advanced cognitive skills but basic emotions are there. I've seen genuine love with my dogs, shame, jealously, anger, happiness and even sadness. If you simply are a "handler" or "trainer" and don't interact with your animals outside of a training situation then you wouldn't experience this. However if your animals live in your home and you interact with them outside of a training situation daily then you would know this.

I saw a program that showed scanning the dogs. Well, it began with how they trained dogs to get scanned (remain quiet in an enclosed space without moving). Interesting program, interesting stuff.

I'd forgotten all about that. Worth the view.

One of the articles I read talked about teaching the dogsd to do the scan. I found all of this very interesting because if dogs do have emotions.... how would that effect training and our techniques for training. Is this maybe why dogs respond better to praise (love, affection) rather than the old school of beating and force. It's kinda like people.... I sure would rather take on a task at work that I am asked nicely for and praised for doing rather to be forced harshly and made to do and punished for if I don't do it.

As for the definition of love, think about why you love someone. Because they make you happy, do nice things for you, hold and cuddle you, do fun things with you, take care of you, enjoy each others company, and put your needs before theirs at least sometimes. I think dogs do the same, maybe on a more childlike level but they do.

One article I read was about a dog whose owners child tried to drown twice. The dog was adopted out to another family and became best friends with a young girl. The dog would not go anywhere near water, at all, not even close. The girl fell into a lake and couldn't swim. The dog dog ran over, paused, and jumped in. He pulled the little girl to shore. For the rest of his life he would still not go anywhere near water, ever! Just that one time. How is some type of emotion not present in that situation.

One of the dogs we had when I was a kid was a boxer. None of the dogs were ever trained. For anything or to do anything. No spay/neuter. No leashes; open the door and let 'em roam. All very average-Joe Dog Owners, the family.

I was a country kid, a river rat, and one of the rules was that I was never to scream outside unless it was an emergency.

I was in the river one day, forgot the rule, and screamed that awful high-pitched scream little girls have. That boxer came flying out of nowhere, down the bank, stuck his head underwater and started pulling me out by my feet. It was very impressive. Didn't feel too good, though....

I had two mutts. They were maybe gsd, something, chow mix. I lived three blocks from my parents who have a pool. While at work they would dig out go to mom and dad's dig in and swim or lay on the rafts we left in the pool for them. I automatically knew when I got home from work to go there and pick them up.

Anyway, if me or mom or dad got in the pool and splashed around and screamed like we were drowning one of them, Bleve (with a long e on the end) would jump in, swim over, doggy paddle in place until we grabbed her coller. She would paddle non stop until we grabbed her collar, and swim us to the ladder. They knew to only get out at the ladder. It was the greatest thing. She did it with no training, no treat, no reward. She just did it.