Dutch Shepherd Forum

Bothered by this pedigree, that is:

http://elitedutchk9.com/our-boys/elites-candyman/

Mother / Great Aunt?

It sure makes me uneasy

Yeah, that would bother me. breeding from the same family?

The thing that kills me is clearly this breeder is proud of his future stud dog, taking the time to create a page devoted to him and post his pedigree publicly. I wish he was proud enough to consider taking a couple genetics and reproduction courses at the local college, if they're offered.

Yeah, yeah; pipe dream.

It seems that there's been a lot of doubling up on Jett's lines in the US. I'm not 100% against line breeding if done correctly and then crossed out, but there should be a good explanation and a goal for what breeders are trying to produce. You also have to look at the coefficient of inbreeding further behind the dog to make sure it's not done too often. In this situation, I'd prefer to see and outcross done to a dog like Molly and then that offspring bred back to someone like Rokko, to reduce that COI.

My biggest concern with breedings like this is that there's not a lot of thought about anything beyond drive and the current dog's workability (at least with the breeders I've seen, I don't know about this breeder). Structure or other temperament issues could be doubled up as well and that's usually not considered.

I have a Jett daughter and her mother isn't a well known dog. I don't know if her mother has been used since her litter, so I don't know what she throws with another stud. While I love Elli, I got her as an adult partially due to her situation and also because Odin took to her quickly, but she wouldn't be my 1st pick if I was a super serious sport competitor. There are a few things I don't like about her, yet I don't know if they're from her mom or dad's side. If they came from Jett, that wouldn't be a line I'd consider line breeding this close. I've emailed/asked multiple breeders that double up on Jett as to their reasoning behind it and what they expect from the dogs and none have answered me. I've also been reading about a new DNA discovery with herding dogs that causes extreme OCD like behaviors when the particular gene is doubled up, so it concerns me.

Now, if Jett was the one passing on the good things I like about her and there was an explanation and plan as to how the dogs would be used for a future line, maybe I'd jump on board. I've seen too many dogs produced from breedings like this that make awful dogs outside of training and trials though and those usually are the types kenneled 100% of the time when not training because they aren't very functional otherwise.

I, too, have no problem with line breeding or even inbreeding...if a vigorous and heavy culling program is in place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't exactly the case in the world of dog breeding in general and DSs in particular. At least not here in the U.S., anyways. Or is my impression of the industry incorrect?

As a random bit of trivia, inbreeding was the way to assess the genetic "purity" of a bull/ram/etc. before the advent of genetic testing. Breed a bull to 35 of his daughters concurrently and if no genetic defects show up in the offspring, the bull is 99.7% likely to be genetic defect free. Science!

As far as outcrossing is concerned? It is all good and well as long as people don't forget the lesson learned of what one bull could do/did to an entire breed when it comes to Herefords. Otherwise, they may be doomed to repeat history on one level or another. (:

fetch wrote:I, too, have no problem with line breeding or even inbreeding...if a vigorous and heavy culling program is in place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't exactly the case in the world of dog breeding in general and DSs in particular. At least not here in the U.S., anyways. Or is my impression of the industry incorrect?

Well, it depends. It typically isn't done with working dogs, but it's often done with show dogs. Culling doesn't have to mean killing the pups. Typically in good show dog kennels, it's done by neutering the dog and placing in a pet home. That eliminates the poor ones from contributing to the gene pool, yet it also satisfies the need for pet dogs for things like performance sports or just companionship. Show breeders also tend to co-own their projected better pups to make sure they're health tested and Championed before being bred.

Now, I haven't seen a DS breeder's contract that required no breeding and spay/neutering if the dog wasn't titled, health tested, etc. I could be wrong on that aspect as I obviously haven't looked at every breeder's contract, but based on the number of untested litters out there with parents from good kennels, breeding of purchased pups isn't controlled like it is with show/conformation dogs.

You're right though about it only working if heavy culling exists. There are a number of people that give the reason for line breeding/inbreeding is that "this is the way it's done in Europe," but they also don't acknowledge that culling is common practice there whether it's by putting them to sleep or petting them out after neutering.

I have a litter mate to the sire of this litter...I asked him, on this forum, why no pedigree on Kanga...My girl is a craigslist find, and not the only one to end up there...This guy was not the breeder of this litter..BUT...I let the breeder know that my girl has crap hips...showing lameness at 19 months.. only 50% in socket on the left and 75% on the right...so he breeds her dad to it's 1/2 sister...Rocko is out of an uh-oh litter and I wonder if it isn't father/daughter father/sister breeding....I love my girl...but it is sad to see this happening in this same town with the same lines over and over...sigh

ps to my posts..no health testing are done on these dogs...my girl is a super reactive dog...and you will notice that the male is no longer on his stud list...Some one in that area is currently ditching a 5 year old female that you can tell has just weaned a litter, the male about 6 yrs and a 9 week old puppy on craigslist...don't know the blood lines, but i have a good guess.