Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hi,
Is it impossible to find an obedienced trained Dutch shephered that has not had any formal bite work? I would rescue but then again i don't know the dogs history, in IPO, KNPV etc what people are imagining they can accomplish with these dogs and am not looking to increasing the dogs natural drives anymore than that of what they are, I owned a german shepherd. Where could I get started? Is there a way to tell if the dog has been trained in this manner?

I would contact NADSR and ask them if they have any dogs available that would suit you. Not all rescue dogs are damaged.

what do you want to do with the dog? Call NADSR, Mine had papers so not all have blank pasts.

Dutchringgirl wrote:Call NADSR, Mine had papers so not all have blank pasts

How'd you get papers? Rescues aren't "supposed" to come with papers. Papers mean squat to me--I'm just surprised they were actually given to you.

Thor's the only adopt where I even knew who the breeder was, but only because his former owner asked if he could be in contact with whoever adopted him, and he told me the breeder. Still, I was never given his papers.

She was bred by a " breeder" then he gave up the pups. So I do have her lineage.

What do you want to do with the dog?

of course you can! I see alot of DS that are single purpose working dogs, detection only and have never been formally trained to do patrol work. There seem to be many who just do herding or agility or dock diving. I am sure one is just not going to suddenly appear, it will take time and research to get what you want. It took me over a year interviewing breeders, handlers and going over pedigrees to find the Dutch I wanted.

You can always acquire a puppy and pay for an extended board and train with either a trainer or the breeder to add obedience or even get an older green dog or rescue and go that route. Depending on your budget and what level obedience you need, you can get anything from basic CGC/BH level obedience to a dog completely reliable off leash and ready to compete in open/utility.


You can also look for washouts from a detection program. I think Christie (Northwoods/Thunderhawk) occasionally has a DS that just doesn't work for detection that she sells as a young adult/older puppy to active pet homes. I'm not sure if she does any bitework with those dogs, but it's worth asking.

To add to the NADSR recommendation, sometimes if the dogs are in a great foster home, they will come with basic obedience included.

I'm sure exactly what you're afraid of with having a dog previously trained in bite work though. It doesn't make them more aggressive or more likely to bite. If anything, it teaches them control and, especially if the bitework was sleeve or suit oriented only, it gives them a proper outlet of when and where they can bite.

I have 2 DS, 1 came from a PSA sport person and had been trained since she was 12 weeks old, the other came through multiple rescues and pet homes, but was never trained on anything more than a tug and wedge. The one more stable around strangers and better at obedience is the one with the history of bite work. I didn't take her back to a decoy until after the 1st year I had her and now we rarely do it because I'm focusing on agility and it she's an awesome comp obedience dog.

Thanks Lyons family! What is a tug and a wedge. I wont bother you with a million questions about the sport(Some dont call it a sport, I am not sure what you call it). I have seen Shutzhund trained dogs in the past go after a child that was just swinging her foot in a shallow plastic pool of water. It again is TO HARD TO TELL if that is the breed (herders) or the training, that is what scares me. I want to do obedience and agility with her and of course take her to the dog park and out in the field, . I had a blast doing it informally with my GSD (actually a cross but mosly GSD). It was amazing how when i was watching schutzhund training videos recently I trained Nikita to do most of the things required in shutzhand obedience. Only problem is she had absolutey no ball drive (they use dumbells I see but she was NO SHUTZHUND prospect. Tracking was fun, Nikki and i did a little bit of that. We used keys because they had a strong scent, again i dont know how dumb this got but it was fun! We layed treats or used peanut butter on hard wood and I seemed to be doing it the right way, but never was taught though, WIERD LOL. We were a fan of the kong and the rope toy. She would get frustruated/snappy (actually she was ms. Alligator her whole life but would not hurt a fly) and I could not train her out of it. It seemed to happen if i did not play with her, or she got excited and I quickly learned when she wanted something to do all the time, again she never bit or anything but i do wonder about why she did this. We walked constantly, went to the dog park constantly...she was generally submissive but again that would get her into trouble at the park sometimes because she lacked confidence then would get nippy with some dogs in that submissive position, i think this is called passive aggresive in humans but was probably trying to defend herself once in that position, never understood this... but again never bit and no dog fights. She would occasionally bounce around and than put herself in a half stance showing interest in play AND even though we started socialization at a young age 4 mths...she just was not confident in playing with other dogs. I worry about finding another dog because i want one that is not so submissive, shows more confidence, is playful, has a ball drive, and gets along with other females-WHICH i noticed Nikita was partial to MALES but NOT OTHER FEMALES. Is this common (same sex aggression?) I have seen it in female to female but not male to male so I dont know. Is it the actual breed that has the problem when this happens or the sex? Anyway I probably should have gotten a behaviorist/trainer at some point. Sorry for going off topic many times, so many questions left unanswered altough i have been around dogs my whole life I just never understood her behaviors well enough. I loved my dog to pieces though! She lived till she was twelve, then her hips gave out entirely, back legs started scuffing...could not take her anywhere and she had tumors that grew very quickly. It was sad but those tumors grew so quick and her hips gave way all at once making the decision easy to put her down but oh so hard of dog to let go of. That was two years ago, Great dog. Now back to...She just would not retrieve...so we ended up playing games; I would obedience train her than toss her a kong as a treat/reward or just throw the kong at her for long amounts of time to catch...how do you train that? I would also use the rope toy or kong toy and teach her 'watch it' or guard the object and than 'get it' and she would go after it, ya know just to keep her attentive; and also hold up a rope toy lengthwise and let her sink her teeth into that, again she was a mouthy dog; loved to bark and chase birds. That was not a fun expereince. Could not let the dog off leash except in a big open field. We also owned a beagle, he lived till he was thirteen and that dog could not be left off a leash for ten seconds because he was a beagle, he also taugh my other dog to run away too. The only good thing about this was that she would stay with my beagle whom we always had a harder time getting back. I just taught Nikki to lie in place and that was how i caught her. I am going to want an attentive, off leash dog. Another question, We had to use a prong collar because she could throw me down like that if she felt like chasing a bird. She did not do this with dogs, just birds. I dont know...I worry I may have trained her wrong this way, but we used the prong collar responsibly! Any advice or good dog trainers for where I live? I live in lane county area, Oregon. This is a project, it could take many years for me to build this dream and then again I am not sure if it will happen but that is why i am looking into the DS, and because they are the smaller of the shepherds? I am going to be honest in saying that i love the breeds intelligence and attentiveness( I could never love the words more than pay attention or 'watch me' to deter her from distractions). yes my want for a DS has a lot to do with looks... but in humans this is called attraction, lol! I know I dont want a male because i dont want them lifting there legs everywhere. Im just getting prepared. I dont even know if the dutch shephered is more difficult of a dog to OWN than a German Shephered. Again I used tons of positive reinforcement and a firm but gentle hand in training. All feedback is appreciated from Dutch owners! The biggest problem dogs I have ever seen personally, are Am Staffs i.e.; the pitbull and the Australian shepherd. Anyone else wanna share there least favoorite breeds?

For future reference what behaviors am I looking for in a playful adult dog? Because sometimes she used to get really frisky, hackles sometimes raised and bounce around or run around with other dogs which was fine. It was when she used to just act overly submissive, roll over...act like she was dying for no reason at all, start squealing and do that alligator snappy thing; just acting like she was totally defensless or something. The dog never was abused, and I would usually just take her home that day. It turned out to be a no fun behavior at all, anyone know why did she do this? She started this as a puppy, and way before i ever started using a prong collar. I did not start using one until after she was an adult. Are dog parks a good thing for dogs? What do you look for in a playful dog, example; posturing. I noticed ears back is not a good thing.

Wow, that was a lot of words. It might make it easier for us to follow if you space things out into paragraphs. I'll try to address the things you ask. Please repeat if I miss anything.

Tugs are anything you play tug with including the rope you mentioned. I like fleece ones for a agility. A bite wedge is basically the same thing, but it's more of a pillow and is used on young dogs and you can transition to a sleeve or suit eventually if you're going that route, but you can also just play tug with it and it overs something different. Everything done with a tug is done as a game and they're often used as a reward in lieu of a ball or treat. I'm not much of a protection person. Agility is my primary focus. I have tried PSA with Elli because I love the breed and she loves it, but it's nothing more than a sport for me. I haven't competed in it and I don't know if I will. If I do, I don't have level 3 plans or anything.

DS are much more difficult dogs than German Shepherds. They are constantly needing an outlet and a job. If you don't do protection with them, they still need to be taught when and where to bite even if it's all just with tugs and balls. They have a tendency to be reactive and, like all herders, can chase and nip at kids. Certain lines are also more likely to have human aggression and not tolerate strangers at all. I will tell you that my dog Odin, the one who has never had any bite training, if not under obedience control, would bite a strange child doing something like swinging her leg in a pool. He doesn't like kids or strangers and has a high prey drive. It's just the way he is and I just manage with very very good obedience. I personally don't think DS should be in a home with kids, but I know people and dogs that make it work. Elli doesn't mind kids. She does fine with my dog 4-H club, but I'd never let her free off leash with kids running around because she does like to herd and pull on clothing if she gets excited and isn't controlled.

As for same sex aggression, I've seen it a lot more in GSDs than DS, but it can happen. Female to female is worse, but male female pairings are always easier. I have a male and a female and if we get a third, the new dog will be a male. As for marking, I think Elli (the female) marks more than Odin. Neither mark in the house. Odin was never really interested in lifting his leg and goes pee on command, but Elli is sometimes insistent on marking in certain outdoor areas. I think a male would be better to fix it though, because they can wear a belly band.

What is it you don't like about Am Staffs and APBTs and Australian Shepherds? Both breeds have some traits that are similar to DS.

I'd like to add, since I just saw your most recent post, these are not dogs that do good at dog parks. They're not usually social outside of their known companions. I don't like dog parks at all to begin with, but taking a high drive/high prey/supposed to be aloof dog to an area with potential untrained dogs of all sizes is a bad idea. Some sporting dogs can handle it and small dogs in a small dog only area seem to do well, but I wouldn't take a Dutch Shepherd to a dog park or expect it to be ok with strange dogs running loose.

I don't really understand your other questions, but it sounds like you're looking for a lab in a Dutch Shepherd's body. I'll admit, they look really awesome and that's a big reason why I picked Odin over the Tervurens and malinois we were looking at, but you can't make the dog into something it's not.

from what ive read i agree with lyonsfamily in that other than looks a DS really isnt what you seem to be looking for in a dog.
personally id say dont get a dutch shepherd, there are many other fun, beautiful and easily trained breeds out there that would suit your needs.

briefly addressing some of the things i spotted,
1. "I dont even know if the dutch shephered is more difficult of a dog to OWN than a German Shephered"-
to say theyre more difficult is an understatement, theyre nothing alike in that DSs are extremely difficult and challenging dogs in more ways than i can describe. (not to mention dangerous in the wrong hands)

2. "I want to do obedience and agility with her and of course take her to the dog park and out in the field"-
i wouldn't recommend ever putting a dutch shepherd in a dog park or letting them run loose in public spaces where they can escape, get hit by a car, injure/scare another person/child or injure (maybe kill) a loose/untrained dog who bugs them.

3. "and because they are the smaller of the shepherds?"-
as ive seen of the dogs imported to/bred in ireland the DS can be just as big if not larger than the average german shepherd.

4. "I am going to want an attentive, off leash dog"-
DSs are not off leash dogs and you shouldnt have one loose in public places for safety reasons as i mentioned (and usually its illegal to have dogs roaming free or unleashed in the majority of public spaces anyway)

there are alot of fun, child/family safe, cuddly, sporty, pretty and easy to train/work with breeds/mixes out there. id advise you to reevaluate as most of the things you want contradict with what owning a DS entails

also,
if youve consciously had a lack in understanding body language with your last dog it would be wise to do research into that before you get any other dog in the future, regardless of breed

For balance, I am going to go on the record stating being able to take a Mal or DS to a dog park or off leash in public where allowed really is dependent on the individual dog.

This makes me very sad then. I just dont think a dutch would be a good fit for me then. I am going to start laughing in rememberance of my dog though, she did try to bait flies, just remembering more stuff! I am always gonna wonder why she got so snappy WITH ME at times. Wow, ya its a lot to think about. I don't like Am staffs because they will just sick other dogs and im talking like liability issues and extensive vet bills. I am not looking to get sued or anything. Australian shephereds go straight after kid's faces and bark at them in the face, I have seen this in several different instances. Nothing like I have seen in my former GSD. I almost got bit for trying to bathe one. Other than that do these dogs ever turn on their owners?
I noticed my shephered was really noise sensitive, that was just her temperment of course; not especially sound like a gun dog would be. She just couldn't handle the fire alarm, so i always had to take her outside whenever it went off. So yes, maybe a gun dog would be better for me, . However if NADSR had any available seniors, im guessing the dogs would be behavioral traits/problems would be quite a bit more clear or at least could be determined by then. Nikki...she never actually did actually wind down, all the way to the end. Thanks for all your help!

I also want to point out that she was a really anxious dog, which is why I waited sooo long and did so much training but still had to end up using a prong collar. I had no choice but to use one, but the thing gave me success and did not seem to bother her so long as the collar was used correctly. It also never seemed to bother her. Thats another problem im going have to tackle in owning a large dog, you really just don't know what you are going to get. I got a high anxiety dog, that chased after birds. Hopefully whatever decision I make, the dog will not be an anxious one. I know having a dog off leash is illegal in most public places...I am talking about fieldwork. Thanks everyone!

fetch wrote:For balance, I am going to go on the record stating being able to take a Mal or DS to a dog park or off leash in public where allowed really is dependent on the individual dog.

Actually dog parks ARE dangerous places.

My Thalie has intensive bite work training, she is in no way aggressive, pft, my daughter dresses her up and paints her nails.

Bite work does not make them more agressive, it refines what they already have. Plus, the do not just go biting any one and everyone. they are trained to listen to you and ONLY do that on command. ALSO, if they are only trained to bite for sport, not real police work or other officer type work, they will NOT ( should not) bit skin. They only know to bite when they see the decoy in the suit,

Now, with that said, we were driving in town once, and Thalie saw a guy in a big suit with some sign and stared at him intently with that " Can I bite him mom !! " look.

over all, IMO NEVER go to a dog park

DS' ARE off leash dogs, they are working dogs and will learn very quick what you want them to do, but YOU must do alot of OB training to get them there.

You can take them to open spaces, I do all of the time, if they are well trained its fine. they are working dogs, not hounds ( of which I have had too) With GOOD training, they are fine off leash.

Before I got Sadie, I did take Thalie to the dog park, only because it was the only place I knew with water when I moved to my new town. I could walk Thalie through the biggest group, of the most annoying dogs, off leash and she would never break the heal. But again, she has had intense training. I still dont recommend dog parks and havent gone in years and dont plan to.

They are NOT family safe dogs, not in general anyway, if you want a family fun safe dog, get a Golden.

A beagle is a hound, hounds can NOT go off leash unless you have them trained.

I am not sure a DS will be a good fit for you.

tofflemireally wrote: I don't like Am staffs because they will just sick other dogs and im talking like liability issues and extensive vet bills. I am not looking to get sued or anything. Australian shephereds go straight after kid's faces and bark at them in the face, I have seen this in several different instances.

Then I would say that you have, unfortunately, been around unstable representatives of both breeds. ANY DOG of ANY BREED can be unstable. Add that to the fact that 99% of people don't understand dog body language and you have a perfect storm. Even the most balanced dog can bite if the signals he/she gives are ignored.

tofflemireally wrote: Actually dog parks ARE dangerous places.

Then why would you want to go to one? That was one of your requirements, was it not...to have a dog you could take to a dog park?

tofflemireally wrote:I just dont think a dutch would be a good fit for me then.

I agree. 1000% Primarily because you seem to be all over the place.

If you have seen so many breeds do so many bad things I think you are around the wrong people.