Dutch Shepherd Forum

So I just got curious and decided to look up my Malinois's sire, my pup Zoe's dad- and see if they registered the litter, which they did not on the Pedigree Database yet. There was however over 88 offspring from that same sire in another database over seas. That's not even the ones that he sired in the USA since being imported. Midwest Working Dog's bred their female Kona to D' Only to produce what they said was supposed to be a "hard" pure working line Malinois. My pup isn't any different than any of my Dutchie's were at that age and she just likes to play a lot now that she's over a year old.

Here he is and he was bred with an imported dog named Kona (Guarda De Alphaville Bohemia) through Midwest Working Dogs which isn't listed.
http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1 ... -Valeureux

His spawn that have taken over Europe:
http://en.working-dog.eu/dog/DOnly-des- ... 9/children



My trainer said of course, we have a "Pet Grade" Malinois. Except I didn't buy this dog direct, it was more of a re-homing after someone else didn't want her. If only top trainers, military or police were the only ones buying these animals- the lines would cease to exist. These are after all, farm dogs that hung out with the farmer doing his daily tasks.


M

And your point to this post is....? Congrats you got a mal with somewhat nice lines and most likely IS a pet grade mal?

If you're trying to seem self important that you can handle "non-pet grade dogs" I would be more impressed if you were handling Arko or Carlos, hell, even rehabbing the MWDs that come back because they're too aggressive. To your point that it's how you raise them you're barely right; it's how you raise them and how their genetics come out, as well as handler dog experience, handler training knowledge, being able to correctly read a dog, and effort.

And yes, they were farm dogs... a very long time ago. Now they're bred for a purpose which is why some lines/temperaments are not recommended for pet homes. Can you get a nicely bred DS or a Mal that isn't a workaholic/danger/insane dog? Yup. Is it in every litter? Not always. And unless you're working with a genetic wash, or "pet grade", it takes a lot of training and dedication to get them "pet grade."

Some of your points have been points I've tried to make in recent posts as well as in the past.

k9Dutch wrote:And yes, they were farm dogs... a very long time ago. Now they're bred for a purpose which is why some lines/temperaments are not recommended for pet homes...it takes a lot of training and dedication to get them "pet grade."

k9Dutch wrote:it's how you raise them and how their genetics come out, as well as handler dog experience, handler training knowledge, being able to correctly read a dog, and effort.

I must have gotten lucky. Perhaps me letting my dogs play for hours to wear eachother out helps. I do know the dogs need to be doing something, training or playing- otherwise, they'll re-arrange my house.

M

Mark77 wrote:I must have gotten lucky.

Mark77 wrote:otherwise, they'll re-arrange my house.

I've had two adopted (surrendered) DSs. Both with different and various issues not uncommon to the breed.

My current guy was bred by a self-proclaimed military breeder; KNPV mother, and I think KNPV father. He couldn't go in a work program. Was described as a "just a very tough dog," and needed a certain home. Words to describe his negative attributes when he came to me: incorrigible, aggressive, disrespectful, untrustworthy, reactive/unstable/a loose cannon, and a big punk.

He's a different dog today, save for what his DNA/breeding produced, though progress over the years has also been made on those fronts--just not to the extent for which I hoped. (He would never make a herder.)

I can leave food on the counter or coffee table. He won't touch it. He's never kenneled/crated; I leave him loose in the house whether I'm home or gone. He won't touch anything in the house, not even his own stuff. Even if he's charged with energy.

He (or my last DS) didn't come like that. How they ended up wasn't luck of the draw.

Raven wrote:

Mark77 wrote:I must have gotten lucky.

Mark77 wrote:otherwise, they'll re-arrange my house.

I've had two adopted (surrendered) DSs. Both with different and various issues not uncommon to the breed.

My current guy was bred by a self-proclaimed military breeder; KNPV mother, and I think KNPV father. He couldn't go in a work program. Was described as a "just a very tough dog," and needed a certain home. Words to describe his negative attributes when he came to me: incorrigible, aggressive, disrespectful, untrustworthy, reactive/unstable/a loose cannon, and a big punk.

He's a different dog today, save for what his DNA/breeding produced, though progress over the years has also been made on those fronts--just not to the extent for which I hoped. (He would never make a herder.)

I can leave food on the counter or coffee table. He won't touch it. He's never kenneled/crated; I leave him loose in the house whether I'm home or gone. He won't touch anything in the house, not even his own stuff. Even if he's charged with energy.

He (or my last DS) didn't come like that. How they ended up wasn't luck of the draw.

I was being a little sarcastic to the trainer guy. The chances of getting three purpose bred KNPV dogs as pet grade is a little ridiculous. I wouldn't recommend any of these dogs for people who aren't going to work the animals. As you mention Raven, it takes a lot of dedication to get these animals to be well behaved, socialized, and good with people.

KNPV just means the dog has a few KNPV titled dogs somewhere in its lines, Mark, not that they're guaranteed civil or hard or a challenge to own, and practically 90% of the DS/Mal's in the US have some form of KNPV blood in them. And yes you can get 3 genetic washes if that's what you want. Quite easy to do with enough time and connections. The hardness and civil was of a dog depends on lines and genetic factors. In fact, KNPV means all of our dogs aren't pure DS, they're DSx or DS/Mal crosses if you want to get technical. "Genetic washes" are in every litter, the degree to which depends on the person and what they want to do. To you your dogs are awesome, to another they are shit, to another they're "just okay", and to another they're nice.

But the point stands Mark, what do you mean about this post? It has no value to the community. If you are bragging about your mal, good for you, we'd love to offer our congratulations to your mal when s/he wins an award or places in a competition, or even just trials or performs well, or even a hilarious story about daily life. As your post stands now, it does not have a point and is technically spam, so if it does have a point please let us know so we can properly respond.

And knowing k9Dutch personally, I fully stand by what he posted above.

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote: KNPV means all of our dogs aren't pure DS, they're DSx or DS/Mal crosses

Question about this, and correct me if I've taken the meaning out of context:

A KNPV dog can't be purebred, given the right factors? (Albeit, rare.)

I know only enough about KNPV to be dangerously stupid with information. That's why I usually just listen. And some of the information via internet seems more like misinformation. Years ago, I tried plowing through what a trusted source told me was a definitive read on KNPV (from history on up)---at some point, my eyes began glazing over.

KNPV For Dummies...they've written one for everything else.

Basically. From what I've learned from someone over in the Netherlands who does KNPV you could have a totally pure DS (no mal no nothing) but it is rare because KNPV dogs are bred for work, not looks, so they really don't care what going into the lines. FCI lines are pretty much the only pure pure lines and, though I'm not as well versed as I like to be in them, I thought one or two had some mal waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back. Could be wrong. KNPV most commonly, from what I've seen, has mal, DS, warbler, some type of pitbull, as well as groenendale mixed in.

There's also a difference in DSx and DS mix, to which I'm still learning the definitions and looks of. But I have learned it drives the Netherlands up the walls calling a KNPV bred dog "pure" or "full" DS. They tend to leave it as KNPV or mal/Dutch, DSx, or such.

From what I can tell the same goes for the actually term KNPV line. You don't have to have a full pedigree of KNPV stock to be called KNPV. There's a certain percentage you need I think (this is where some of the older school people I've talked to disagree so I haven't gotten a straight answer) but I have learned that it's not a lot to earn the title. If someone wanted they could mix in FCI or even non KNPV stock, although honestly I would imagine these mixes being done overseas and not here as there's not enough mixed blood. Today, there's pretty much all KNPV lines in the US - even some UKC dogs are KNPV - and fewer FCI lines.

Again, this is all preference of knowledge that goes into reading a pedigree.

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:From what I can tell the same goes for the actually term KNPV line. You don't have to have a full pedigree of KNPV stock to be called KNPV.

This is my understanding, which makes sense.

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:it's not a lot to earn the title

Maybe to the pros . But you only have ONE shot to get a dog KNPV titled, yes? If you or your dog didn't make the grade, that's it. You can't try to title THAT dog again. (This is what I've read.)

My bad, I meant not a lot % wise to earn the title of "KNPV" lines. To earn an actual PH1 oh heck yes, a whole lotta work! Lol. My brain isn't working well today.

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:KNPV just means the dog has a few KNPV titled dogs somewhere in its lines, Mark, not that they're guaranteed civil or hard or a challenge to own, and practically 90% of the DS/Mal's in the US have some form of KNPV blood in them. And yes you can get 3 genetic washes if that's what you want. Quite easy to do with enough time and connections. The hardness and civil was of a dog depends on lines and genetic factors. In fact, KNPV means all of our dogs aren't pure DS, they're DSx or DS/Mal crosses if you want to get technical. "Genetic washes" are in every litter, the degree to which depends on the person and what they want to do. To you your dogs are awesome, to another they are shit, to another they're "just okay", and to another they're nice.

But the point stands Mark, what do you mean about this post? It has no value to the community. If you are bragging about your mal, good for you, we'd love to offer our congratulations to your mal when s/he wins an award or places in a competition, or even just trials or performs well, or even a hilarious story about daily life. As your post stands now, it does not have a point and is technically spam, so if it does have a point please let us know so we can properly respond.

And knowing k9Dutch personally, I fully stand by what he posted above.

First, my post was simply observational in the "Whatever" general discussion area. Basically saying "hey I found out my little Mal puppy has a ton of siblings all over the place". As far as spamming, I've been here over three years and have just over a hundred enthusiastic posts and you have been here less than two years with over 700 negative posts. So that being said, whose the spammer? Hell I haven't even been here in months until this past week.

Second, your trainer friend sounds like my trainer, that only trainers can own hard dogs and everyone else just owns pet grade animals purchased at Petsmart. The difference is the trainer's skills when it comes to these dogs. The same dog owned by a K9 trainer could be "hard" where as the same dog owned by a regular Joe could be a pet. My dog Asia for instance- her brother was purchased directly by a police department and is currently a narcotics/police dog while she was purchased by me as a pet. It could have been the other way around.

Third, and I apologize but I sense a bit of jealousy in you with your condescending tone about my dogs. It isn't my fault that your dog didn't get the number one "Dutch Shepherd Most Awesome Dog Award" as Riddick did. Nor the number one "Most Awesome Dutch/Mal Mix Award" as Asia did, nor the number one "Most Awesome Puppy Malinois Award" that Zoe did. I can't help that my dogs are awesome. It took years of training to get them to this level and the award is so exclusive that only three dogs have that award- it just so happens they are my dogs.

Now that's a general discussion post.

Thanks,


M