A protection dog is never taught an out because there isn't one as it's generally choked off. A dog that shuts down under pressure is not a protection dog. Sport protection dogs as well as police dogs for certification are taught the out command but again- for training purposes are generally choked off as well. From my trainers perspective at the time, it was believed that training the out diminishes the drive because the dog is anticipating the correction. He was correct, as I saw it myself trying to train the out using an electronic collar for a video for a perspective breeder.
I'm totally ignorant on the topic but have a question. Is this philosophic different why police dogs are sometimes shot by their handlers/others when the dog will not release? I always that those were training fails, but maybe thats just how the dogs were trained?
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:41 pm
by Mark77
Tim91118 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:45 pm
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/2014/05/verbal-out-out-return-and-tactical-release-part-1/
Totally believe everything except the “out”
Police dogs have to have a verbal out- during certification.
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:19 pm
by TimL_168
What brings this up?
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:19 pm
by Mark77
I brought it up because I was remembering training my dog when he was younger. With him not being a police dog, he was a little "off" as to the goals of what we were doing. He'd hang on until that sleeve was released then drag it off to the side to eat it. Eventually we got him squared away requiring the choke release but just thought it was funny.
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:52 pm
by ladyjubilee
So, I'm still confused. I understand a dog caught up in the bite/reward, but I dont understand why it would be good that a dog be able to control the reward instead of the handler. It seems kind of like owning the couch. Or even food, that is my food and I allow the dog to have it.
Also, is choking out why DS are prone to come up the leash?
Whew, service work is way easier!
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:10 pm
by Mark77
The reward is the bite work. Them retaining the sleeve afterward or hanging onto a decoy until being physically choked off is because they don't want to let go. There is no out in a real world situation if a threat is still breathing. I was told that training the out diminishes the drive because they end up anticipating the correction. You don't do it unless training for say a certification on a limited basis or perhaps a sport dog title of some type. Otherwise you just choke them off.
Watch this, start at 3:45 until the end. Copy and paste.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_-kKT-Kkvk
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:41 am
by Tim91118
Mark77 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:10 pm
The reward is the bite work. Them retaining the sleeve afterward or hanging onto a decoy until being physically choked off is because they don't want to let go. There is no out in a real world situation if a threat is still breathing. I was told that training the out diminishes the drive because they end up anticipating the correction. You don't do it unless training for say a certification on a limited basis or perhaps a sport dog title of some type. Otherwise you just choke them off.
Watch this, start at 3:45 until the end. Copy and paste.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_-kKT-Kkv
This is a law enforcement dog and completely different than a family protection dog
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:45 am
by ladyjubilee
SEL wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:34 pm
You couldn't take a dog like Laszlo and ever try and put him into defense drive, he'd be a mess. Maybe that's what somebody tried to do with him previously. Who knows.
Could Idna make those kinds of decisions?
Re: Protection Dogs.
Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:54 am
by Mark77
Tim91118 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:41 am
This is a law enforcement dog and completely different than a family protection dog
The only difference is the individual level of the continually evolving continuum of pressure to where a particular dog is at. The more advanced the dog, the more pressure it can handle. This video does a good job explaining why you choke dogs off when protection training.