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Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:13 pm
by Norseknight
I was talking to my breeder on the phone today (she is also a trainer).
When I mentioned that I 100% support positive reinforcement training, her response was "specifically with this breed, you absolutely will not get 100% of the time the desired behavior without using some type of correction. As a puppy yes, the positive reinforcement will be enough, but after that stage of thier lives, it won't be enough"
When I go visit her to meet my future pup's parents I am going to inquire more as to what she meant, what type of corrections, etc. Just curious how you other owners/trainers of the breed feel about this statement?
Agree or Disagree? and why?
Re: Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:36 pm
by ICE
Everyone has their own opinion on training. All I want to say is don't let anyone convince you to do or use something you are uncomfortable with. I think sometimes positive is confused with permissive.
Positive can be done, I've done it and I am sure there are many more that have.
Re: Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:59 pm
by centrop67
ICE wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:36 pm
...don't let anyone convince you to do or use something you are uncomfortable with.
I 100% agree with ICE.
My two
During the training and life of your dog you will be incorporating corrections to some degree. It all depends on what your comfortable with. Simply turning your back on your dog because he/she is not giving you the proper behavior is a form of correction. You're probably more at ease with that than a a zap from an e-collar, yet it's still a punishment for the dog.
It's not easy, but you change trainers if their methods don't meet your needs.
A few of the old members of this group were hard core about this breed needing a firm (and harsh) correction at times - admitted to me offline mostly. I am not sure if that's just the dogs that were being protection trained, but I do know what stubborn @$$holes (Radar) the breed can be at times too.
Re: Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:39 pm
by Norseknight
centrop67 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:59 pm
ICE wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:36 pm
...don't let anyone convince you to do or use something you are uncomfortable with.
I 100% agree with ICE.
My two
During the training and life of your dog you will be incorporating corrections to some degree. It all depends on what your comfortable with. Simply turning your back on your dog because he/she is not giving you the proper behavior is a form of correction. You're probably more at ease with that than a a zap from an e-collar, yet it's still a punishment for the dog.
It's not easy, but you change trainers if their methods don't meet your needs.
A few of the old members of this group were hard core about this breed needing a firm (and harsh) correction at times - admitted to me offline mostly. I am not sure if that's just the dogs that were being protection trained, but I do know what stubborn @$$holes (Radar) the breed can be at times too.
Yeah, I really think it comes down to how the dog responds to "lesser" aversive corrections such as turning the back. Some dogs may get super frustrated by this, or cause them to lose their focus, etc. So I think it is likely going to mean I need to feel out the dog and see what he responds to best to keep the training moving in a productive direction.
Re: Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:35 pm
by ICE
centrop67 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:59 pm
ICE wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:36 pm
...don't let anyone convince you to do or use something you are uncomfortable with.
I 100% agree with ICE.
My two
During the training and life of your dog you will be incorporating corrections to some degree. It all depends on what your comfortable with. Simply turning your back on your dog because he/she is not giving you the proper behavior is a form of correction. You're probably more at ease with that than a a zap from an e-collar, yet it's still a punishment for the dog.
It's not easy, but you change trainers if their methods don't meet your needs.
A few of the old members of this group were hard core about this breed needing a firm (and harsh) correction at times - admitted to me offline mostly. I am not sure if that's just the dogs that were being protection trained, but I do know what stubborn @$$holes (Radar) the breed can be at times too.
I am obviously not very good with the quote thing, LOL But wanted to comment on the last section about old members. It does not require a heavy hand for protection training. ICE is a IGP3 dog and got high in trial for his IGP1, IGP2 and IGP3. Just club trials but it can be done. It certainly took me longer to teach him all the behaviors required but I didn't care.
I feel the most important thing is only do what you feel is right. Don't do whatever any trainer tells you because at the end of the day, you live with the dog and it is your responsibility to do right by him, whatever "right" means to you.
Re: Would you agree with this statement from my breeder?
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:01 pm
by TimL_168
I've read in the past few years about the difference between negative reinforcement and simply letting a negative thing happen