Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hey all, Its been a while since my last post. I just got lily my 7 month old female DSD back from puppy boot camp today. She was away training for the last 30 days. I was very impressed with the results. Her on and off leash obedience is very clean she looks very disciplined for a 7 month old with as much drive as she has. The bad news is she and my 6 year old Dobie had a real nasty fight upon her return. It was the worst fight I have ever seen between any bitches I have ever had. The trainer was there at the time along with an engkish mastiff and a tiny poodle that lily had been around for the past month. She acted fine with them ignoring the poodle and playing with the mastiff. Before we sent her off to training, I was starting to notice her show signs of dominance over the Doberman if I was outside with them (like a jealous thing). However when they were by themselves they played and got along no serious fighting. Today was serious...she took a nice piece out of the dobie. The trainer tells me to keep them seperated and give it a few days and then try putting them together again but I have my doubts. Lily is very head strong and the most dominant bitch I have ever owned in all ways. The dog aggression is new though and seems to be getting worse. Any ideas and advise from some of you veteran DSD handlers would be greatly appreciated. These two NEED to get along and co exist no way around it!

I am not an expert, and I've never had two females, but I have heard that once two bitches decide they don't like each other, they never will.

The people on the GSD forum will strongly recommend that people not have two bitches in the house. However, I also read that people are able to manage it. Never leave the dogs alone together, and learn the proper way to break up a dog fight. It might improve, it might not.

Here's the most recent discussion on the topic. You will see sometimes it works, sometimes it's really bad.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ge ... -idea.html

You might have some success with a behaviorist that might be able to pin down a particular problem and work on it.

I never was a fan of the "send-away training". IMHO, me training my dog establishes an irreplacable bond. We are both going through a learning experience and become a real team. 30 days away for such a young dog is almost a quarter of her life, not counting the baby/puppy time at the breeder. That means missing out on some very important developments.
In regards to the Dobie, unfortunately, it seems they need to start their "relationship" all over again. Since she played with the Mastiff, it looks like she is not dog aggressive in general, but nothing was at "stake", i.e. territory, food, toy, I assume.
On a lighter note.....There is a reason why a bitch is called a bitch (I always have male dogs This is not helping, I know)

I am also not a fan of send away training. I train my animals, either myself or with a trainer. Yes, the bond you build is incredible, but I also dont trust training methods used behind closed doors. Ive seen alot between horse trainers and dog trainers.

My two girls get alog great. Neither of them are "bitchy" . Sadie does try to asssert herself, but I can keep a handle on her. Sadie is insecure.

I do agree with Schluss about your dobie though.

I provide In-Kennel training all of the time for people, and I don't think it effects their bond. Some people just don't have the time or ability to maintain consistency, and for those dogs, I think its easier on them if someone knows what they are doing and doesn't bumble through. Leader Dogs, Service Dogs, Police K9 are rarely trained by their owner/handler, but I would bet their owners feel very bonded to the dog.

That being said, 6-7 months is a big maturing time for her. Her aggression may have been less if she was there for you to manage it in direct contact with your Dobe, or it may have occurred anyway.

I would invest in 2 sturdy basket muzzles before ever putting them back together. This will prevent any further injury or pain stimulation that could make the situation worse. Condition the girls to wearing them until they are completely comfortable and leave the the muzzle alone. Then handle your introduction under control. Down-stays at a distance from each other. No tight leashes to build frustration. Lots of rewards, but only for controlled behaviors. I would do lots of these sessions before allowing any freedom. At all times, they need to learn that YOU are in charge of the situation, not them.

They may never be OK together, but they may. My girls consist of Willow (10), Emma (4), Salix (2), Geisha (18mo) and Balis (10mo). They all live together and play. I'm not gonna say that's due to my amazing skills though, its probably their personalities.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Christie M wrote: Leader Dogs, Service Dogs, Police K9 are rarely trained by their owner/handler, but I would bet their owners feel very bonded to the dog.

Does that depend on the Policed Department, i.e. if they give the handler/owner enough time to to train from scratch? I was a lucky enough to meet Bob Anderson http://ik9c.net/ when he was training with a group of police officers and their K9s in some abandoned buildings. He is total GSD though (Mink vom Haus Witt is his ultimate role model working GS), also imports GS puppies from Germany for police departments. He is problably p*****d about the new USDA law too. Our Jupiter Police Department has a Blood Hound puppy in training to become SAR. I got the impression they rather use puppies and "green" dogs to train to their specific needs themselves.

Thank you Christie and the rest of you for your replies and advise. I agree with some of you that sending a dog out to be trained can in some cases be a bad idea, especially if you do not know the trainer or their methods. In this case not only was the trainer highly recommended to me by several people, he also invited me to his facility on several occasions so I could watch him train and see what methods he used. I was very comfortable and confident in sending my dog. I also need to point out that I have trained my last three dogs in obedience all by myself with good success. I am not a Master Trainer but I am also not a green pea to the training world. I have also competed in Schutzhund with one of my dogs and put a title on her. In this case I had to be man enough to admit to myself and others that this dog was just "too much" for me to handle by myself. The last thing I wanted to do was make a mistake that would set her backwards in her training instead of forward. I also have to point out that while she was away her training was more then just learning to sit, stay, down, come, and heel on leash and off. He also worked with her on alot of dominance issues. She was worked three times a day by two different handlers. She was introduced to many different animals including larger dogs, small dogs and cats. She was taken to many different locations and socialized with many different people. My children went to his facility to work with her and he handled some pack order issues. This DSD is alot more dog then I have ever owned and needed a very skillful and experienced trainer. She was slightly flammable in nature and very handler aggressive before she left, the results are excellent. I would recommend anyone who owns a strong working line dog like mine to send a dog away for training rather then taking matters inti their own hands unless of course they are very experienced training these types of dogs. As far as the problem at hand, the muzzle advise was good. It was same advise mentioned to me by trainer. That seems to be where we are headed. I have had mostly females in the house my entire life normally two at a time. In every instance one was the alpha, normally the older one. They worked out there pack structure on there own without a problem. They had a few "catfights" here and there but no blood and if I yelled ENOUGH, they stopped. This situation is more serious and is going to require more work on my part. Thanks again to all those who replied for your advise and responses.

tedge007 wrote: In this case I had to be man enough to admit to myself and others that this dog was just "too much" for me to handle by myself.

Tom, you have my highest respect! I see your point. Others might have just given up on her.

Schlussdibusti wrote:

Christie M wrote: Leader Dogs, Service Dogs, Police K9 are rarely trained by their owner/handler, but I would bet their owners feel very bonded to the dog.

Does that depend on the Policed Department, i.e. if they give the handler/owner enough time to to train from scratch? I was a lucky enough to meet Bob Anderson http://ik9c.net/ when he was training with a group of police officers and their K9s in some abandoned buildings. He is total GSD though (Mink vom Haus Witt is his ultimate role model working GS), also imports GS puppies from Germany for police departments. He is problably p*****d about the new USDA law too. Our Jupiter Police Department has a Blood Hound puppy in training to become SAR. I got the impression they rather use puppies and "green" dogs to train to their specific needs themselves.

Yes, I do think it is department dependent. Some departments do buy green dogs (from us and others) and put them through the training themselves. Others promote officers to K9 who have never even had a chihuahua. Those officers usually go through a handlers course (4-12 weeks) to learn how to interact with the dog, but it is often a fully trained dog.

Honestly, my favorite is the officers who have been assigned 2 or 3 different dogs in their career and they have maintained trained behaviors. Suddenly these folks are "trainers" offering services when they don't even have the slightest clue on how the foundation with their own dogs was trained. Its classic.

@christie, I know what you mean. I am in Law Enforcement but not K9. I have many many friends who are k9 Officers though in the Northeast. Most of them admit to me that they really have alot less control over their Dogs then people think. Other then the liability Insurance laws, this is the main reason why the Dogs are always isolated and kept away from people. I have seen these dogs work with their handlers and it's unreal the amount of force that is used to get the dog to "out". They are not allowed to deviate from the course training guidelines and like you said they have no clue as to the foundation training the dog had. They just know the commands given to them in handler training school. Which for a few of my friends was 20 years ago with very little refresher training!

tedge007 wrote: She was slightly flammable in nature and very handler aggressive before she left, the results are excellent.

Out of curiosity, could you describe the flammable and handler aggressive actions? I am dealing with my first DS and I must say that I absolutely LOVE the breed, but I am wondering if her behavior is quite normal, or if she falls into the flammable handler aggressive category.

Hmm how to explain...Doesnt like taking NO For an answer! Lol....Seriously I meant that she has a short fuse. She reacts to stimulus very quickly. If and when she is given a correction on leash she becomes aggitated very easily and "screams" at you. May or may not turn to bite handlers arm or leg. Type of dog you have to remain very calm with. Some dogs will get out of line and if handler shouts at them they will stop immediately! My dog will scream back in the form of barking and or a growl. She also has alot of "fight drive" even as a young puppy. If she is biting on you and you grab her by the mouth and say no maybe give her a little shake...she just keeps going after you harder and harder...it's a game! While an experienced eye can see it's a game and might even comment on what a good quality it may be in a working dog...the person getting bit can easily mistake it as an act of true aggression. Dogs like my female make great sport dogs, excellent police and military dogs. They can be awesome personal protection dogs for the family, but require alot of time and training. She wouldnt be able to just be a pet in a home. She needs to be worked, she needs an outlet. Hope the description helped...

Hmmm. Thanks. That DOES help. Mine is not quite there, but definitely doesn't like 'no'. She is also used to be over the top reactive if I corrected her, but isn't so bad any more.

She still talks back a bit and will growl, snap at or go for me during a correction but my trainer and I are working on it... I was just curious.

tedge007 wrote:Hmm how to explain...Doesnt like taking NO For an answer! Lol....Seriously I meant that she has a short fuse. She reacts to stimulus very quickly. If and when she is given a correction on leash she becomes aggitated very easily and "screams" at you. May or may not turn to bite handlers arm or leg. Type of dog you have to remain very calm with. Some dogs will get out of line and if handler shouts at them they will stop immediately! My dog will scream back in the form of barking and or a growl. She also has alot of "fight drive" even as a young puppy. If she is biting on you and you grab her by the mouth and say no maybe give her a little shake...she just keeps going after you harder and harder...it's a game! While an experienced eye can see it's a game and might even comment on what a good quality it may be in a working dog...the person getting bit can easily mistake it as an act of true aggression. Dogs like my female make great sport dogs, excellent police and military dogs. They can be awesome personal protection dogs for the family, but require alot of time and training. She wouldnt be able to just be a pet in a home. She needs to be worked, she needs an outlet. Hope the description helped...

Do you know her breeding? There are a few lines of DS here where coming up the leash at a handler is celebrated.

she is a van leeuwen X Le Dobry cross...

whahaha, I read your description of the dog's behaviour, and was thinking "this must be a van Leeuwen" then I remembered you had a v Leeuwen dog

This is why I, no matter how much I love a blue dog, will wait 'till I have learned some more on dog training. No easy doggies...

For me it was and still is Baptism Under Fire! Its not like I only had standard poodles before this either, as I have previously said I have owned some Imported German Dobies that I considered some serious dogs. These guys are on a totally different level though....everyone tells me to just make her a kennel dog and compete with her in ring. Im too stubborn though I got her to be a family protection dog and that is what she is going to be no matter how much work it takes !!

I had a gsd who decided she was going to kill my dog at every oppurtity she could so I couldn't bare to part with either of them so I four a way round it when there was only one of us about they would be allowed in the same room together but never unattended if I went out the room one would be made to come with me. If. We went out dogs was left in desperate rooms never together and it worked no more incidents they were both bitches and yes bitches very rarely forgive or forget but I did it for the duration of there lives when the eldest one passed away I got a male gsd swore blind would never have two bitches again but saying that it worked and never had to part with either of them just had to find a way it could work so they could live there lives out with one owner