Dutch Shepherd Forum

Ok, Raw feeders, I need help! My little Xena has developed a dry flaky skin. I think it is due to my fluctuations in omega 3's or 6's amd active and inactive forms....But i am totally confused!

My vet sent home a raw diet sheet saying fish oil every day, but NOT Cod liver oil, Dr Ian Billinghurst (Author of the BARF diet) says Cod liver oil is the Only supplement he would give every day. Whole prey folks say no additives needed. Some friends go to Costco and buy big bottles of Omega mixes?????

I am currently feeding mostly chicken (wings, backs, thighs, leg quarters) pork necks, beef/venison, turkey necks and wings, canned salmon or sardines, yogurt, free range eggs, salmon oil, vit E. and occasional rabbit.

Thanks!!!!

Are you getting your 10% of organ meat, too? I see mostly muscle and bone in your diet description.

Ditch the Billinghurst info. He was one of the first to write about raw feeding, but cod liver oil is not good. You want a good quality salmon oil, preferrably one that's cold processed. I love Grizzly Salmon Oil, and both cats and my DS get it, each meal. Then, you need to give Vit E, if you feed Salmon oil, since they use up a lot of the available Vit E in their systems in metabolizing the salmon oil. How much Vit E depends on weight (my cats get two drops, twice a week; Geyser, at 50 lbs, gets 400 IU daily; make sure to use mixed tocopherols, however that's spelled ).

If I only used one supplement, it would be the salmon oil/Vit E combo (OK, that's really two, but you get my drift).

I also feed kelp and alfalfa powder, diatamaceous earth (none of them every has worms), a good quality probiotic (really makes a difference; helps the cat with flea dermititis, and Geyser's poop is much more consistent when she's taking it), and for Geyser, another product called Flea Free, which is a ton of vitamins in liquid form. I don't use Frontline or any of the topicals, and she doesn't have any flea dirt on her, let alone fleas.

Could they do without most of that stuff? Probably. While I heartily disagree with the decision, they could probably eat Ol' Roy and do fine (ha ha Judith). But, I feel good about their diets and know they're getting what they need for their bodies to do their jobs, well.

And, reading what the Experts say about raw feeding is the same as anything else (training, etc.); everyone has an opinion, and is certian their opinion is the ONLY way to go . You really have to watch out for the Purists that live everywhere...the raw feeders who are Only Whole Prey and Nothing Else are among them. This is where you have to decide which experts you are going to stick with and then not worry too much about it.

Back to your original issue...dry skin. Try some good salmon oil and stick with it and see what happens over time.

Of course, all of this is only my own

leih merigian wrote: diatamaceous earth

Im going to have to look into that, you feed that? I put that in my pool.

Dutchringgirl wrote:

leih merigian wrote: diatamaceous earth

Im going to have to look into that, you feed that? I put that in my pool.

Don't use the pool stuff. Buy food grade.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... CHkQ8wIwAQ

100%with Leih.

The "right" oil seems to be changing depending on who you ask. Wendy Volhard in her 'Holistic Guide for a healthy dog' recommends cod liver oil (vitamin A+D, EFAs) to help assorption of calcium and phosphorus for strong bones/teeth. Safflower oil (EFAs) for skin and coat. Flaxseed oil is too hard to digest for most of the dogs. No mention of Salmon oil at all in her book. I personally haven't read that cod liver oil is bad. Would be interested to know more about it.

Dutchringgirl wrote:

leih merigian wrote: diatamaceous earth

Im going to have to look into that, you feed that? I put that in my pool.

You must use ONLY Food Grade DE---NOT the stuff for pools!!!! Also great for the horses!

I forgot to mention the liver and kidneys etc. Also, they do get Vitamin E and Salmon oil, but I am unsure of the amounts to give, so I am winging it.

I have given the dogs Kelp, but it can be toxic to the cats at very small doses (cat recipe called for 1/8 of a teaspoon to 5 lbs of meat/organ mix!) So i use a bit of iodized salt for that.

I heard that the reason cod liver oil was bad was because of a possible vitamin A overdose but apparently it takes a WHOLE lot for a long time...

Anyhow, how much salmon oil (and vit E ) do you give per cat/dog? I have 50 lbs of the food grade diatomaceous earth that I put out for my chickens to roll in... Maybe I will throw some in

What is the flea stuff you use? All of the topicals I have used have quit working. (I know they aren't good for them anyway, bout the fleas are SO bad!)

alspyce wrote: You must use ONLY Food Grade DE---NOT the stuff for pools!!!! Also great for the horses!

I kind of figured that

I wish I knew about DE when I had my horse farm ! Very interesting.

My guys get the Grizly wild salmon oil daily. I have my local pet store special order their large container (2L) for me which is much cheaper then the usual sized ones. My guys get 3 pumps/day.

Was there any rational behind not doing Cod?

I have heard that plant based oils are not as good as they are harder to fully absorb.

As far as the cod liver oil goes, with the Vits A + D, which are fat soluble, you have to be very careful about how much you give. The salmon oil, if it's high quality (not heat treated, tested for metals and such, etc etc etc), has the highest usable amounts of stuff in it that their bodies can actually absorb (how's that for technical jargon?<g>). Dosages...I go by the bottle directions. Geyser, at 50 lbs, gets three pumps/day (again, this is the Grizzly brand). Buying in large quantities helps on the price, but if you don't use it quickly enough, it goes rancid fast (it starts oxidizing as soon as you open the bottle), which is why I stick with the 16 oz bottles. Also, remember to gently shake the bottle before each use.

The Flea Free stuff...that's the name of the product<g>. Flea Free. It's made by Natural Pet Products. For fleas and ticks, I use a combo of this (a teaspoon in each meal), plus garlic pills (three daily, squeezed on food), plus neem spray every time we go out of the yard into any tick prone areas. Then, I religiously check for ticks several times daily.

And, yes, it's always food grade DE<g>. I forget to put that in sometimes...

I'm feeding some 220lbs of high cal intake dogs we go through that stuff fast enough.. too fast!

You can also buy the gel caps for humans, the advantage is that the oil in the gel caps stays fresher longer, and you can find this stuff on sale pretty cheap. There's also Costco.

I have the human grade gel caps right now. After my pump bottle of salmon oil ran out I had to grab some at the grocery store (two for one sale!!). I guess that would be one gel cap per cat/day and 3 gel caps/dog? As long as I can't overdose them I am fine!

Then I have to feed equal amounts of vitamin E right? I am really not an idiot, I just SEEM like one...

Lauren wrote:I have the human grade gel caps right now. After my pump bottle of salmon oil ran out I had to grab some at the grocery store (two for one sale!!). I guess that would be one gel cap per cat/day and 3 gel caps/dog? As long as I can't overdose them I am fine!

Then I have to feed equal amounts of vitamin E right? I am really not an idiot, I just SEEM like one...

NO!

Vitamin E dosages: 100mg/daily for a small dog; 200mg/daily for a medium dog; 400mg/daily for a large dog.

Also, I used to think the fish oil caps you can buy at the Costcos of the world are fine. They're not. My doctor says they're already rancid when you buy them (this is my human doctor for me ). I now take super krill oil caps that I get from a supplement company.

As far as the dosages go, you can't go by how many capsules, but by the mgs in the caps. They have 100, 200, 300 and 400mg capsules for fish oil.

Lauren wrote: Also, I used to think the fish oil caps you can buy at the Costcos of the world are fine. They're not. My doctor says they're already rancid when you buy them (this is my human doctor for me ). I now take super krill oil caps that I get from a supplement company.

This is true, my best friend has Fibro and does tons of research on supliments for humans and she also said the stuff is already rancid when you buy them. I dont buy anything from the regular stores.

EWWW!

Ok, I will find some grizzly. Thanks!

Just to make it more confusing........ There is synthetic (dl alpha-tocopherol) and natural (same name just without the l - d alpha-tocopherol) Vitamin E. And in US stores, I usually see Vitamin E measured in IU not gram. Each of my dogs (lab and DS) get 1 capsule of 400 IU natural Vitamin E.

Schlussdibusti wrote: Each of my dogs (lab and DS) get 1 capsule of 400 IU natural Vitamin E.

Per day? Wow I have not been giving nearly that amount. I will up it.

Schlussdibusti wrote:Just to make it more confusing........ There is synthetic (dl alpha-tocopherol) and natural (same name just without the l - d alpha-tocopherol) Vitamin E. And in US stores, I usually see Vitamin E measured in IU not gram. Each of my dogs (lab and DS) get 1 capsule of 400 IU natural Vitamin E.

Oh man, you're right of course, with Vit E it's IUs not mgs. Duh! I hope lauren knew what I meant

no worries. I haven't stuffed her full of Vit E

Her coat is much better. It is back to it's shiny flake free self! I am still not sure what caused it or what fixed it, but it is gone!