Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hello,

I found that I can show at ABIDS show a DS with UKC rgistration
I had no new from CFC , still waiting if UKC dogs can been shown....

So, with the news I would like to know if someone who are active in RING have or expect a DS litter ?

Thank you very much,

Josée

fonds de gueulle in France

Do you want your dog to be a Canadian Champion? You will need to defeat 15 other dogs. And also have 2, 3 point majors. Do you think there will be other DS to show against in Canada?

I am showing in UKC, and there is no competition at the show I go to. I think maybe the only shows with DS are at the big show in June in Michigan.

It's very difficult, but my dog can be a Champion if a judge places him in Herding Group. I think in 2 years when my boy is grown, it might be easier. Or I can drive to Michigan in June.

Hi Carol,

CFC show is the same rules as FCI so no major.
The other association is ABIDS show, which is more hard to understand as they have many rules for the titles...

CKC need 10 points, and only 1 major of 2 pts ( but DS are not allowed ((

I don't know the UKC rule but I know that if my DS is UKC reg'd I'll be able to sow at the ABIDS show in Ontario, Canada.

Hi Marjolein,

I had reserve a male from "Jimmy Cazalas : Fond De Gueule".

I want to know if at least someone breed DS with UKC registration ??

Sorry, I didn't read the CFC, but I was interested in the ABIDS, so that's what I was looking at. It's very hard to find people who are showing DS in conformation.

In UKC, you need 3 "wins" and 100 Points. The wins can be Best Male or Best Female, or if no other DS, a placement in Herding Group. The points is more complicated, but if you are BOB, then you get 35 points.

There are some UKC shows in Ontario, Albert, and Yukon Territory.

Hope you find a dog you like.

Jbou wrote: I want to know if at least someone breed DS with UKC registration ??

There are some breeders here who UKC register some or all of their dogs. Asheley Winter's (www.dutchshepherds.us) in Utah is one. My first 2 litters were registered. CherCar produces registered stock. UKC may have a list of breeders for reference.

Hi Christie,

I had look to the UCK website as I'm in Canada :

I don't find if I can be a "UKC breeder " ?
I didn't found if I'll be able to registered my futur pups if ( in the futur my DS were UKC reg'd) ?

I know a lot of question but it's hard to know the rules of all Dogs Association ( CKC, AKC, FCI, UKC....)

Tyvm,

Josée

I have registered 2 imported dogs with the UKC, so I understand how it works. One was from the Swedish Kennel Club, and the other with the Dutch Raad Van Beheer.

You can register a dog with UKC if both parents are UKC dogs (any country of birth).

OR....

You can also register a single dog that already is registered with another registration. These are listed on the back of the "single registration" form. They include, FCI, AKC, CKC, TKC, and more, including some registries that are particular to a certain breed.

You must include a 3 generation pedigree with the registration.

2 of my dogs are registered with both FCI and UKC. If you only register FCI, and then in the future want to also register some dogs with UKC, you can do this.

Here is the form. http://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/fo6adm.pdf

CaroleBoaz wrote: You can also register a single dog that already is registered with another registration. These are listed on the back of the "single registration" form. They include, FCI, AKC, CKC, TKC, and more, including some registries that are particular to a certain breed.

You must include a 3 generation pedigree with the registration.

OR you can single register a dog that is not a part of any other organisation. You must include the registration form, 3 photos (one frontal and both side profiles) plus a letter requesting that the information be sent to committee for review. Because the DS does not have a parent club in the US to make decisions for UKC, they will consider each dog that is presented to them.

Thank Christie,
now I understand how I'll be able to have registered pups ( not yet don't worry, nothing before 2-3 years)
But for myself it was important to know if I'll be able to sold registered pups and with which association.

best regards,

Josée

Christie M wrote: OR you can single register a dog that is not a part of any other organisation. You must include the registration form, 3 photos (one frontal and both side profiles) plus a letter requesting that the information be sent to committee for review. Because the DS does not have a parent club in the US to make decisions for UKC, they will consider each dog that is presented to them.

I had heard that, but I don't agree with it, because you know those are mixed dogs and not pure DS.

Even with my 7 generation FCI pedigree, the UKC wanted photos of my dog. But the woman in Michigan who imports long-coated DS did not have to send in photos.

CaroleBoaz wrote: I had heard that, but I don't agree with it, because you know those are mixed dogs and not pure DS.

That's why many people think that registrations are only worth the paper that they are printed on. Its been stated many times that there is KNPV blood in some FCI dogs - some openly and some not so. The biggest reason I like to register is that IF you are honest, then there is a paper trail of pedigree and it opens up some events within that organisation.

CaroleBoaz wrote:I had heard that, but I don't agree with it, because you know those are mixed dogs and not pure DS.
Even with my 7 generation FCI pedigree, the UKC wanted photos of my dog. But the woman in Michigan who imports long-coated DS did not have to send in photos.

It is quite the can of worms, Carole, the mixed vs FCI discussion. It would not be, if all dogs were like Marjolein's or yours, total FCI lines. But as soon as the names of some (former) big FCI DS kennels start to appear in FCI pedigrees, there goes your 'pure' theory.

If you had to submit pictures for Boaz, and someone else did not have to submit pictures of the long hairs (are you sure?) then I agree that that's not correct. I assume they assume that the long- or the rough hair has not been 'messed' with, but still. (they should have one rule for all)

CaroleBoaz wrote:

Christie M wrote: OR you can single register a dog that is not a part of any other organisation. You must include the registration form, 3 photos (one frontal and both side profiles) plus a letter requesting that the information be sent to committee for review. Because the DS does not have a parent club in the US to make decisions for UKC, they will consider each dog that is presented to them.

I had heard that, but I don't agree with it, because you know those are mixed dogs and not pure DS.

Even with my 7 generation FCI pedigree, the UKC wanted photos of my dog. But the woman in Michigan who imports long-coated DS did not have to send in photos.

Pure DS??? They make one of those???;-)

vneerland wrote: It is quite the can of worms, Carole, the mixed vs FCI discussion. It would not be, if all dogs were like Marjolein's or yours, total FCI lines. But as soon as the names of some (former) big FCI DS kennels start to appear in FCI pedigrees, there goes your 'pure' theory.

ehm, Dingo has e (legally!!) mixed in KNPV ancestor (Carto) in him, so there goes the "pure" on him

Right now I'm at the point where I really do not care much about mixing, as long as it is LEGAL!! Not because I like to follow rules but because it is simply horrible to find a certain line to breed with, if none of the papers are correct

vneerland wrote:If you had to submit pictures for Boaz, and someone else did not have to submit pictures of the long hairs (are you sure?) then I agree that that's not correct.

I am sure. We sat together at a show and talked all day. She was really surprised that they wanted photos from me.

I think I read that in The Netherlands, you can provisionally register a DS without a pedigree, but it has a special code, and offspring are not considered "pure" until there are three generations. Maybe some of the Netherlanders on the forum can confirm this. I don't remember where I read it.

Marjolein wrote:

vneerland wrote: It is quite the can of worms, Carole, the mixed vs FCI discussion. It would not be, if all dogs were like Marjolein's or yours, total FCI lines. But as soon as the names of some (former) big FCI DS kennels start to appear in FCI pedigrees, there goes your 'pure' theory.

ehm, Dingo has e (legally!!) mixed in KNPV ancestor (Carto) in him, so there goes the "pure" on him

Right now I'm at the point where I really do not care much about mixing, as long as it is LEGAL!! Not because I like to follow rules but because it is simply horrible to find a certain line to breed with, if none of the papers are correct

And here, everything is "legal" but not always ethical. I like everything to be upfront and honest so that people know exactly what/who they are purchasing.

CaroleBoaz wrote:I think I read that in The Netherlands, you can provisionally register a DS without a pedigree, but it has a special code, and offspring are not considered "pure" until there are three generations. Maybe some of the Netherlanders on the forum can confirm this. I don't remember where I read it.

No, I dont think that is correct.
IF that were true, the dog would have to be approved by the NHC (and trust me, that is not going to happen) and then it's offspring would, if they all passed the bar, be eligeable for full FCI papers in 3 generations.
Currently, they even have severe issues with allowing the varieties to interbreed (!) and give papers to the offspring. The pups would have nothing but DS on the pedigree, all FCI, but nope....not allowed.
The long hair and the rough hair are so close to extinction its probably too late for them anyway (to maintain a healthy genepool of 'pure' bred dogs) but still, the door is closed for new blood. They would sooner consider approved out-breed crosses (like Tervuren or Laekenois) than to allow breeding within the breed, but with different coat varieties.

The provision to enter KNPV line dogs into the stud books was open until the 70's.Then, the studbooks closed in Holland, and some (prevalent short hair) breeders did their own thing, but under false names from there on.
The short hair genepool has not changed in 100 years, or that's my own opinion anyway, but the labels sure have.

Perhaps it was the KNPV, that you described, that I was reading about.